THE COURT: Mr. Dungan, can we leave this preliminary or final or whatever it was for the court recorder?
MR. DUNGAN: Sure.
THE
COURT: I have exhibit B, C up here and
I’ll pass on
(At 1:40 p.m. recess)
(At 1:48 p.m. proceedings reconvened; Court,
counsel, parties present)
THE COURT: Okay. I apologize for that interruption. Mr. Dungan?
MR. DUNGAN: Yes, Your Honor. Our next witness is Brad Chaltry.
THE COURT: Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony you will give in this matter will be the truth, so help you God?
MR. CHALTRY: Yes, I do.
THE COURT: Watch your step. The chair is on rollers, so be careful. And the microphone is not going to make you any louder, so make sure you speak up loudly and distinctly for us. Okay? State your full name.
THE WITNESS: My full name is Bradley Charles Chaltry.
THE COURT: Bradley Charles. And spell the last name?
THE WITNESS: C-h-a-l-t-r-y.
THE COURT: Chaltry?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Dungan?
BRADLEY CHARLES CHALTRY
Called at 1:49 p.m. by the Defense, sworn by the court, testified:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Mr. Chaltry, what’s your address please?
A.
Q. What kind of property is that?
A. A farm. A ranch.
Q. How many acres?
A. Ten.
Q. All right. You live in a, you have a house on that where you live as well?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Keep animals on the farm?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What do you keep out there?
A. We have horses, goats, sheep, pot belly pigs, chickens, ducks.
Q. Dogs?
A. Dogs, cats.
Q. How are you employed?
A. Self employed.
Q. All right. You do construction work?
A. Yeah, we own Ratcliff Construction. We also own Charlie’s Animal Rescue Rehabilitation Relocation, we own Ponies Are Us, we own Ratcliff Animal Removal Services.
Q. Now, when you say we, who is it that you’re referring to?
A. Myself and my wife.
Q. Your wife’s name please?
A. Kim Chaltry.
Q. All right. She’s the one that was not able to be with us here today, correct?
A. Yes, sir. Due to illness.
Q. Now, as far as the Ponies Are Us company, what is that?
A. Ponies Are Us got started about seven years ago. We had a few ponies, we started doing pony rides with the animals. We also started with the DNR license we have for the Ratcliff Animal Removal, we started taking in animals. Well, it went above and beyond a case of taking in wildlife to taking in domesticated animals anywhere from cats, dogs, all the way up to livestock.
Q. All right. And that’s where you fell under the Charlie’s?
A. Yes. Because Ponies Are Us was mainly started to be a pony ride company, we went ahead and started Charlie’s Animal Service for the main reason it was just easier paper work wise and when it comes to just regular office things, phone calls and things like that.
Q. And what is it that you and Kim do through Charlie’s?
A. We get a lot of animals-—
THE COURT: What’s the full name of Charlie’s again?
THE WITNESS: Charlie’s Animal Relocation Rehabilitation and Placement.
THE COURT: Okay, I’m sorry. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: Okay. What was the question again?
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. What is it that--
THE COURT: Is that different than the rescue then?
THE WITNESS: Well, see, the one direct, direct with animal removal was, is mainly, it’s in the yellow page ad, mainly as a wildlife ad.
THE COURT: Is there a company with the name, the word rescue--
THE WITNESS: Yes. Charlie’s has the rescue in it. I know I said relocation and placement.
THE COURT: Okay. Got you. Okay, I’m sorry.
THE WITNESS: It should be rescue, rehabilitation and placement. Sorry.
THE COURT: No, that’s fine. Mr. Dungan, I apologize. Go ahead.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. What is it that you do through Charlie’s?
A.
Through Charlie’s we work for a lot of cities, the city of Romulus, city of Dearborn, city of Livonia, a
lot of local cities around us aren’t facilitated to take in agricultural
animals on it, so basically what the cities do is they call us, anywhere from
the city of Romulus calling us that they had a loose cow and needed the cow to
be captured and transported. The city of
A. When you come take all the animals, then what is it that you do with them?
A. Well, we bring them back to the farm and the first thing that gets done with them, they get an assessment on, you know, if any of them are hurt, sick or what not. A personal friend of ours is a veterinarian so he comes to the farm. A lot of times if it’s possible he will go with us, but basically then what we do is we take the animals, we bring them back. Either we’ll bring them to our farm, if they look like they’re sick in any way we take them to a separate farm so they’re not around the other livestock, you know, because some of them are personal pets. So we’ll take them, we’ll quarantine them and then go from there on how we’re going to assess the situation from that point.
Q. All right. So you have other facilities you can use besides your own property?
A.
Yes. My mother-in-law, the whole
family all live within one mile of each other.
My mother-in-law has a ten acre farm right down the street from us. My brother-in-law has eighteen acres. And then we have forty acres on
Q. And are these other family members involved with you and Kim in doing the Charlie’s work?
A. Yes. Right now we have a deal with, up north, with a city up north where we’re trying to get, the DNR is having us come and get like thirty deer. Well, my brother-in-law will facilitate the thirty Seika deer on that.
Q. All right.
A. So it’s like a family run, my father-in-law actually started the animal removal business forty years ago and it’s just been on for generations.
THE COURT: What’s the name of that, Dan Moore?
THE WITNESS: Pardon?
THE COURT: Dan Moore? What business you said he started.
THE WITNESS: Oh, the Ratcliff Animal---
THE COURT: No, you said your father-in-law started some business.
THE WITNESS: Right. The Ratcliff Animal Removal. He started that forty years ago. He passed away in December of ’98, so it went into the family and then we all work together on it.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: Brother-in-law, he does exotic animals, camels, zebras, things like that, where we do more your just regular domesticated animals. So if something’s not your standard farm animal, it’s more of an exotic like a Seika deer, he’ll take that to that farm.
THE COURT: How do you spell Sieka?
THE WITNESS: I believe it’s S-e-i-k-a, but I could be wrong.
THE
COURT: Do we have a lot of camels in
THE WITNESS: A lot more than you’d believe, sir.
THE COURT: Do we have one?
THE WITNESS: What’s that?
THE COURT: Do we have more than one?
THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah. There’s farms that have--
THE COURT: More than I believe.
THE WITNESS: --twenty to thirty of them on it.
THE COURT: Is that right? Where?
THE WITNESS: All over. There’s every kind of animal you can imagine.
THE COURT: Camels. I mean other than the ones in the zoo or things like that.
THE WITNESS: Most people have dromedary camels, single hump camels.
THE COURT: On a farm.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: I’ll be darned.
THE WITNESS: They’re easy to take care of.
THE COURT: All right, thanks. Just a little aside here. Let’s keep it between you and me, okay?
MR. DUNGAN: We can get some education out of this. Nothing wrong with it.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. When you get the rescue work directed toward Charlie’s, I mean how is it that it comes to you?
A. The whole thing just started out with just one web site on the computer and then it’s more or less that by word of mouth on it. Very rarely do we ever get anybody that calls to say we found you on the internet. Usually they’ll tell us either another police department or animal control has referred us.
Q. Okay. You mentioned you’ve done work for the city of Livonia before as far as animal rescue?
A. Yes.
Q. Romulus?
A. Yes.
Q. VanBuren Township?
A. Yes.
Q. Dearborn?
A. Yes.
Q. And Rochester Hills Humane Society?
A. Yeah, the humane society, we’re one of the top on the list for placement. We’re the only one that they don’t, we don’t have to go pick up the animals, they bring them to us.
Q. Okay. And then do you get calls from private persons as well?
A. Yeah.
Q. Under what kinds of circumstances?
A. Sometimes people will call us that they, either the pets become a nuisance, that they either can’t control it or maintain it on the property. Sometimes they just call us if they’re tired of it. Other times they call because the economy is not good and they just can’t afford it no more, anymore.
Q. All right.
A. I mean there’s all kinds of reasons. There will be deaths in families, I could give you a list, you know, a mile long as to why.
Q. All right. And you know what case you’re here on in court today?
A. Pardon me?
Q. You know what case you’re here on in court today?
A. Yes.
Q. You had some involvement initially in that case, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And would you describe for the judge then how that came about.
A. Back in I believe it was March, middle of March, like around the fourteenth, fifteenth, we were contacted by a Chief Luce or Louse on it, and called and said that we were referred to I believe by it was the city of Livonia who referred us. They kind of assessed us of the situation where there was at the time like seventy to eighty horses that were being neglected, was there any way that we could help with it. So my wife and I sat there and talked about it, it was like a Wednesday or a Thursday, you know, the date, like I say, it would be like between the fourteenth and the sixteenth. We talked about it over the weekend on it, you know, is it something we want to get into or is it not. Talking a lot of animals, a lot of work right there. So we talked it over, my wife, actually I believe Chief Luce called us back and we said okay, we’ll come out, kind of, she was persistent on us if we would come out and take a look. The time I called her back it was a rainy day, we didn’t have any construction work going that day, cold and wet, so we decided we would drive out and take a, at least take a look at that point.
Q. We who?
A. Myself and my brother-in-law actually went out.
Q. And what’s his name?
A. He’s Sergeant Joseph Ratcliff.
Q. And sergeant in what?
A. Detroit Fire Department.
Q. Okay. So the two of you drove to Jackson to inspect the farm in Grass Lake?
A. Yes. To take a look to see, you know, what, what was really going on with it, you know, were we capable of handling the situation at that point.
Q. And do you recall that date being March twenty-first, 2007?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. What time did you and the other guy get there?
A. We got there in the late morning. I’d say between like ten and twelve, around there.
Q. All right. Was anybody there waiting for you?
A. Well, we had called Chief Luce-—am I saying that correct, is it Luce or is it Louse?
Q. I believe it’s Luce.
A. Luce? Chief Luce called my wife and then asked and my, I called, my wife called me and I said, you know, we’ll take a ride out there. So she called Chief Luce and she said that somebody would be there at the property, to go ahead and come on out.
Q. What information were you given from the time you’re first contacted until you make it out there?
A. When we were initially contacted they had told us about the horses and we asked what all was involved in getting the horses. At that time we were told, you know, that we’d be able to get the horses, that there were trailers and trucks on the property that would go with them. As always, we ask that any animal if it’s got a pen, any type of things they have to feed the animals with, that that come with it. That’s a mandatory with us, you know, we get the feed and everything with it. So all that would have came with it.
MS. LAMP: Your Honor, at this point I’m going to object just for the point that I’m not sure if this is a conversation that--Mr. Chaltry?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MS. LAMP: Did I say that right? That Mr. Chaltry himself had with Director Luce or if somebody else had this conversation based upon the language of how he’s wording it, that we were told. So I would just like a little clarification on that.
THE WITNESS: All right. On that when--
THE COURT: Mr. Chaltry, just a minute. I think what we’re looking for is Mr. Chaltry’s expectations when he arrived as far as versus what he was told, so..
MR. DUNGAN: Exactly.
MS. LAMP: That’s fine, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I’ll take it in that context. Not substantive.
MS. LAMP: Okay, all right.
THE WITNESS: Can I clarify that?
MR. DUNGAN: No, just--
THE COURT: I just did.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Just continue with--
THE COURT: Yeah, what you were told.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
THE COURT: You were told that you were going to take the horses, that there were trailers and something else. And that you would get the feed and…
THE WITNESS: Yeah, and all the tack and all the stuff.
THE COURT: Feed and tack, okay.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. And is that typical of a rescue operation, that—-
A. Yeah. A lot of times when we got out, we’ll get the feed stuff. A lot of times depending upon the situation, some people say, well, you know, we got the saddle goes with the horse, you know, go ahead and take the saddle. Sometimes they’ll say we lost the horse, you know, we have no use for it, we’ll sell it to you for fifty bucks or something, you know, we usually go ahead and buy it. And sometimes we just get people, they’ve taken the animals, they’re not too happy when you get there, so…
Q. All right. So tell me what happened when you arrived then with your brother-in-law.
A. We went out and when we first pulled in, there was like a truck was, had a trailer of round bales, you know. At first we were a little hesitant, you know, is this the homeowner or what-not, and prior conversation on what they were having, I don’t remember exact words on it, but we kind of realized real quick that wasn’t the homeowner or the animal owners, so we just proceeded just to walk back in, walk right in the gate and walked in the pasture.
Q. What did you see as you were walking around?
A. When we first walked up we just kind of noticed certain things like farrier tools laying on the thing. When we went there we were kind of expecting, kind of expecting to see some old hillbilly, you know, horses that were, you know, starved to death, you know, weren’t walking-—
THE COURT: Let’s-—he asked you what you did see, so let’s…
THE WITNESS: Right. So we walked in, we seen farrier tools, walked in and we saw some horses that were-—
THE COURT: This is in the pasture.
THE WITNESS: It’s walking leading to the pasture.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: There’s like a little drive, a dirt drive that goes back to it.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. What are farrier tools?
A. Farrier tools are just basically the clippers, files, used to trim the horses’ hooves.
Q. Okay.
A. There were horseshoes laying there. At that point we kind of were like, you know, they do a little something with these horses. First thing we noticed is a lot of the horses, we weren’t real close to them but we were close enough, you noticed most of their feet were trimmed. Brother-in-law happened to even make a comment like, man, their feet look nice. You know, we were, like I said, we were expecting to see a lot of--
MS. LAMP: Your Honor, again, I’m going to object to what he’s expecting to see.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Was this different than what you were expecting to see?
A. Yes. When I first got to the property I--
THE COURT: From whom did you get your expectations?
THE WITNESS: Well, when we pulled, when they called us and told us what the horses were—-
THE COURT: Is this Officer Luce?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Is that the only one you talked to in Jackson?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: And you’re the one that talked to her?
THE WITNESS: Both my wife and I both.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: Spoke to her. When we talk about animal cases we always have like a conference call where most, everything’s done on cell phones, so we just keep it on speaker phone so we both know what’s going on.
THE COURT: All right. What were you told by her then?
THE WITNESS: That the horses—-at first they were kind of vague about, you know, the condition-—
THE COURT: Who’s they now? Are you talking—-
THE WITNESS: I’m sorry. Officer Luce was vague about the situations that there was, you know, a lot of horses that were starved and in bad shape. And that was about the gist of it at that time on it. So we drove out to the property and thought we were going to see a bunch of horses that were, you know, half dead, dead, and starved. And when we got there we noticed—-
THE COURT: Did she tell you there were going to be any dead or half dead horses?
THE WITNESS: I believe at the time there was one dead horse. At the time on the conversation.
THE COURT: Did Officer Luce tell you you’re going to see a lot of starved, half starved horses, any dead horses?
THE WITNESS: Not a lot. Usually cases were we go out that is the case.
THE COURT: So you’re saying that your expectations were somewhat of an interpretation from what Officer Luce told you?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. I don’t know where we are now.
THE WITNESS: So—-
THE COURT: Now we’re at the farm?
THE WITNESS: Yes, now we’re at the farm.
THE COURT: You’re walking to the pasture and you see farrier tools and horse shoes.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: And you get-—and that’s all you see between--
THE WITNESS: Well, the trailers are there, there’s a truck stuck in the pasture, some farm stuff. There’s a bunch of round bales already stacked at the road. There was a red truck with a yellow flatbed that was off to the east side of the drive with some really nasty looking round bales on it.
THE COURT: What’s nasty looking round bales?
THE WITNESS: I wouldn’t feed them to my horses. They were-—
THE COURT: Where were they?
THE WITNESS: --garbage looking. On the east side of the driveway. Yeah, east side of the driveway. There was Animal Control trucks in the driveway, some police cars, sheriff’s department cars.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Did the two of you that went there meet with any of those folks?
A. Yeah. When we walked through the gate, like I said, we stood there for a second and we were looking at some of the horses and then Officer Wheaton had come up at that time, wanted to know who we were, what we were doing there. I identified myself as Brad from Ponies Are Us on it. We were treated kind of rudely. There was another sheriff that was there and my brother-in-law happened to tell him, you know, politeness, you know, how you doing, sir, and he’s like, no, that’s, you know, sergeant, or lieutenant to you, and my brother-in-law just basically told him, you know, so am I, so… Then we were told to leave the property after we had spoke to Wheaton. She took our driver’s license, both my brother-in-law and I both, driver’s license, took the information from it and asked us to leave the property.
Q. Who asked you to leave the property?
A. Officer Wheaton.
Q. Were you told why?
A. We told her we—-basically is that we weren’t allowed on the property and we said, well, you know, told her exactly who we were, that Chief Luce sent us out there, we wanted, you know, asked if we could see what was in the barn. The horses outside, almost all of them looked perfectly fine, you know, and that’s why we weren’t sure, we wanted to see what was in the barn. We were wondering kind of as to why we were there. Part of the reason to go back to what you said on the conversation is Chief Luce, Your Honor, said that the people had abandoned the horses. So that was kind of part of, you know, what we were expecting to see was an abandonment case, you know. You’re talking the end of winter, how long have they been abandoned, there’s nothing to eat the end of winter, you know, the ground was still partially frozen at that time.
Q. Were you allowed to go in the barn before-—
A. No, sir, we were not. They told us that the worst of the worst was in the barn and we were not allowed to see it.
Q. And who told you that?
A. Office Wheaton and then there was anther woman there and I believe her first name was Machell.
Q. Also an Animal Control person?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. It sounds like you were having a hard time out there trying to tell them-—
A. Yes—-
Q. Let me finish my question. Who you were and what you were there for.
A. Correct. At first, I mean, we were asked numerous times to come out to the farm. We come out to the farm and then we get pushed away. You know, that didn’t make sense to me. At the time it was like, well, you know, we drove about an hour to come here just to be told to leave and we had been asked for days to come out.
Q. How long did you actually get to spend on the farm before you left?
A. We weren’t there but maybe-—well, we sat in the driveway for about five or six minutes and then we weren’t there for a total of about ten, fifteen minutes before we had to leave.
Q. How far did you get into the farm itself in that ten or fifteen minutes?
A. Through just the one gate into the pasture. About halfway between the gate and the truck that was stuck.
Q. How many horses were you able to see outside in that time period?
A. Without counting, it was a majority, about ninety percent of what we ended up seeing that night. Easy ninety percent.
Q. All right. So you guys end up leaving and going back home.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And does something happen where you end up going back again at some point?
A. Yeah. We got back home and we called Chief Luce and we said, you know, what’s going on here. We finally drive out to the place and then you guys tell us we got to leave, you know. What the heck, you know, didn’t understand that, never had that happen before. So anyways, Chief Luce said, well, who told you, you had to leave, and we told her that Officer Wheaton had told us to leave and she said that we didn’t properly identify ourselves. Well, that was the first thing I did is explain who I was, where I was from, and she took my driver’s license so she had my name, my address.
Q. So did you end up working something out with Luce?
A. Talked to Chief Luce and she says, well, let me call you back, let me handle the situation. She called us back. She said that she, that she chewed out Officer Wheaton for treating us that way. She apologized, would we still come back.
Q. Did you agree to?
A. Yes. We waited till my daughter got out of school and then we grabbed our stuff, we grabbed a bag of stuff, anything that we could have because they said the worst was in the barn and we didn’t know what we were going to see, you know.
Q. What kind of stuff did you grab?
A. We grabbed bandages, penicillin, Bute for pain, we grabbed both powder—-
Q. Just a horse first aid kit then?
A. Yeah, basically, your basic first aid kit.
Q. All right. What time did you guys get back then?
A. We didn’t get back there till like four or five o’clock that evening.
Q. And your brother-in-law’s with you again?
A. No. Just my wife and my stepdaughter and I.
Q. Okay. Three of you.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Tell me what happens when the three of you get there.
A. We get back there, we met with Officer Chapin and a fellow named Willy. As we were driving down the road, once again we see all the cop cars flying down the road and Animal Control, like great, you know, we drove out here again, but when we got to the property we met with Officer Chapin. She was on the property and there was a boy named Willy on the property.
Q. All right. And are you provided with any more information about what’s going on at this point?
A. No. Just Officer Luce, or Chief Luce was apologetic and just really wanted us to come out.
Q. All right. So what do you do once you get there?
A. Once we get there the first thing we did is we just took a quick walkthrough. Went ahead, we looked at everything, all the horses, kind of saw, you know, what needed what real quick. Then we started to walk around to see if we could find anything that we could use to treat some of the horses. Anything from bandages to just anything, bandages, ointments, penicillins. There was a lot of stuff laying around the property.
Q. What were you able to find that was usable?
A. We found, in one of the trailers we found some bandages, basically mostly leg wraps, but they can be used as bandages, they can be used to cover bandages. There was, you know, wormer, but we didn’t worm nothing, lice powder. There was, you know, mainly like bandages and things like that.
Q. What do you do then after this quick overview?
A. After a quick overview, the first thing that we wanted to do was start to feed and water the horses. When we got there the only thing that we saw being fed, I mean, there were round bales at the road, like I said, as soon as you pull in right to your left were a stack of rounds bales, so..
Q. Were they at a place where the horses could get to them?
A. No, sir. They were as close to the road as possible just about. Went to the property, we looked around and there was one round bale out in the pasture at the time I believe. I believe there was one, possibly two. But I know for a fact there was one, one round bale, and there was, you know, seventy, eighty horses on the property.
Q. And is one round bale sufficient for that number of horses?
A. No. We usually figure about one for every five or six on it. Just keeps everybody from picking on each other, you know, beating each other up and allows everybody a equal opportunity to eat. So we went through and we started, started to feed everybody. Well, first, let me back up. First, when we got there Officer Chapin was, we opened the door to the barn and there’s just horses all over in the barn. Stallions were all upset and worked up, you had mares in the barn. She said that they had to get the stallions out of there, that they had a home to place them at. We told them, you know, you don’t gotta place the stallions, common sense says let’s get the mares out of the aisle where the stallion can’t see or want to try to get to her. We pushed all the stallions out, the boy Willy and I kind of fixed the back barn door as best as possible, we managed to slide that shut. There was a gate towards the northeast corner of the barn that we kind of closed off that area, basically got everybody out of the aisle first.
Q. Why did you want to do that?
A. Because the stallions were going crazy trying to get to the mares on it.
Q. Okay.
A. And they were wanting to do their job, you know. Got them out. Then we went ahead and we started feeding and watering everybody.
Q. And why did you want to do that first?
A. Once again, it’s just common sense. It’s just like you, you go to the emergency room, the first thing they’re going to do for you is put an IV in you and start giving you fluids. You know, you’re talking the horses they looked hungry, you know, so we went ahead and started ripping off round bale. They only had the one round bale in there, the horses that were all in the barn, there were some square bales in there, really nice square bales at that. And the horses were eating those, that’s why everybody was in the barn, that’s where, you know, they couldn’t fit around the round bale so they were finding what they could, and I mean, if I leave my barn door open at home my horses would all be in my barn chowing too, you know. So anyways, we started feeding and watering. Like nobody, when we got there nobody had water. I mean, there were none. So we started getting them watered, started ripping off round bales. They had said the reason they hadn’t moved any more round bales, they didn’t have a way to move them. I found a piece of ladder sitting on the property. I went ahead and rolled the round bale on the ladder, chained it to my truck and drug it with my truck, drug it close enough to where we could start ripping it apart. Got it ripped apart, started feeding everybody in the smaller pens. There were three skinny ones that were in a pen. We went ahead and started haying them. To me if I was going to dump the round bale on the property I would have probably dumped it, you know, I wouldn’t have dumped it with the fattest horses, I’d have dumped it with the skinnier. So anyways, we started feeding everybody, started watering. The one boy Willy was in there watering the horses in the barn, was just letting the hose run, you know, we asked him like, you know, why are you, why are you just overflowing the tanks, and he said, well, we got to rinse them out. I told him, you know, take them outside, you know, you don’t just overflow the barn, you know, you can’t flood the stalls that the horses are standing in.
Q. Was it flooded at the time that you got there?
A. There was one, there was a paint horse that had a blanket on it and that one was just pouring. He, his exact words were is he let them overflow for thirty to forty-five minutes to clean them out.
Q. How deep was the muck in the barn?
A. About like a—-oh, how deep was the mud? It was probably about, you know, six to eight inches, just pouring in, pouring in the stall, pouring in, you know, running down the aisle on it. It was like a half a fifty-five gallon drum and it was, when you stick a hose in it and turn it on, you know, it was running.
Q. Okay. So you had to give Willy some direction?
A. Yeah, we had to give Willy some direction. Some of the horses there, was giving them little buckets on it. We started putting electrolytes in all the water, powdered apple flavored electrolytes.
Q. Where did you get the electrolytes?
A. We brought it from the farm on it. Started giving them that to rehydrate, you know, if we figured they hadn’t had any water, better give them a little bit, you know. So we walked around and then we went, when we were going back checking on the horses again, we went, we went back into the barn, started feeding everybody, went back into the barn. We kind of figured, you know, who needed what. We had talked with Officer Chapin and we kind of realized at that point we needed some type of system so we knew who was what, you know, what horse needed what. Obviously if it was going to need anything it would need it for more than a day. Just had to know what horse was what so you’re just saying the brown and white one and there’d be, you know, ten brown and white ones on the property. So the only thing we could find to mark them is I happened to have a can of orange spray paint in my truck, so…
Q. So what did you do with it?
A. We spray painted the horses with numbers.
Q. Just start with one and keep going up?
A. Yeah, we started at one and we ended up going to number eight I believe.
Q. Why not after that?
A. One, pretty much everybody looked pretty good to me, you know. There was really no need to number them after that. I mean…
Q. All right. So eight in particular that you wanted to take a closer look at?
A. There was eight in particular, yeah, that’s probably the best way to put it.
Q. All right. And the rest you didn’t-—
A. Or needed a little more attention.
Q. Okay. And the remaining horses you did not see a need for that?
A. No, I didn’t see any need. They were, I mean besides needing more round bales dumped and needed water, you know, constant water, like really the time you filled up the one and it got empty and we told them, you know, you got to fill the one up in that pen, he said he already did, and we told him the horses drank it. He just kind of like walked away and I’m like, dude, you got to fill it back back up, you know, you can’t--just cuz they drank it, you know, if my horses drank my--you got to fill it up, just have to, you know, common sense you have to have to.
Q. Were you told by anyone when was the last time those horses had received water?
A. We were told that they had been abandoned for like six months. At that point I was wanting to-—
THE COURT: Who told you that?
THE WITNESS: I believe it was Luce. It was either Luce or either Chapin, but I, it was one of the two.
THE COURT: Were you told that before you came the first time to the farm?
THE WITNESS: No, the second when we were on the, the second time between the first and second.
THE COURT: By Luce on the phone call back with Luce?
THE WITNESS: Pardon me?
THE COURT: Were you told that by Luce on the phone call back?
THE WITNESS: Yeah. Between the first and second visit. It was Chief Luce on it.
THE COURT: That was--
THE WITNESS: Because I don’t think I’ve ever spoken, I didn’t speak to either one of you two on the phone so it was just always in person, so--
THE COURT: Your expectation is they’ve been something for six months?
THE WITNESS: Yeah, ain’t been fed and watered for six months. At that point I was wanting to breed my horses to it because you got a great horse if you don’t have to feed and water it for six months and it’s still alive. I mean, pardon me for that, but…
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. What would you expect to see of horses that weren’t fed or watered for six months?
A. You wouldn’t see them. They’d be dead on the ground.
Q. All right. What do you do next then?
A. We went through, we started numbering them, started in the back of the barn, you know, I can’t vaguely recall the number on each one by what they looked like, but I’ll try.
Q. I’ll go through those with you in a minute. After you’re there for a while and getting everybody fed and watered, you’re starting to wonder some things.
A. Yeah. Well, one, they were kind of getting upset with us. They, you know, I said the main reason we were there was to doctor the horses, you know, not to feed and water them, they had people to feed and water them. If they had people to feed and water them, they did-—
THE COURT: Who’s getting upset with you?
THE WITNESS: Well, officer Chapin got on the phone and she come back and she said that we were supposed to, I don’t know who she talked to, but she said we were supposed to be there to, you know, give any medical attention that we could, that they had people to feed and water them. She wasn’t rude about it, but she told us that, you know.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. And you also knew that you were going to be examining the individual horses?
A. Yeah, as many as we could at the, that time.
Q. And you wanted them fed and watered first for a particular reason?
A. Right. I mean, if, if a horse is, is hungry, I mean, even if it, if you fed it that morning and you’re going to mess with it that night, if it’s just got food and water it’s just more content and makes your job a lot easier on it. I mean…
Q. So it’s almost a little self preservation for you making sure that they’re fed and watered.
A. Yeah, it just makes my job easy.
Q. Okay. Did you find hay in the barn?
A. Yeah, there was, there was actually some really green hay in the barn, some pretty nice stuff and we had commented on it because it was so bright green for that time of year. It was pretty nice stuff.
Q. All right. And then you saw some round bales I think too that you weren’t too happy with.
A. Those, by the time we got back the second time, they were gone. They had round bales sitting up by the road, those were still there. That’s what we started feeding on it.
Q. And did you have a conversation with somebody about the poor quality of hay bales?
A. Yeah. I told Officer Wheaton when he(sic) got in, I said I wouldn’t feed that to them horses, it’ll kill them. She had at the time commented the same thing, that she wasn’t going to feed them. I believe you were actually in the process of trying to get them out of there at the time.
Q. And they were gone at the time?
A. They were gone by the time we got back, yeah, they were, they was nasty.
Q. All right. You found any feed in the freezer?
A. Yeah. When we went through the barn on it, there, there was some feed in the freezers, they were big jugs of Cocasoya oil, knew what that was because it’s got a distinct, distinct smell to it.
Q. What’s that used for?
A. A lot of times they use it to fatten up the horses, makes their coats look healthier. They claim it’s good for their joints, but it’s never been proven, but it’ll definitely pack some weight on, it’s like eating Crisco.
Q. You find supplies for the horses too as far as tack, saddles, things like that?
A. Oh, yeah. There was, the one trailer had some really nice saddles, really nice tack.
MS. LAMP: Your Honor, I’m going to object to the relevance of this. I don’t know why we’re going through all the saddle and tack equipment. If the court sees wisdom in that then I guess-—
THE COURT: Mr. Dungan?
MR. DUNGAN: I guess he could probably answer that for me with one question or—-
THE WITNESS: Yeah, if somebody just walked away, they’re--
THE COURT: Just a minute. What are you trying to get to?
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. The items that I asked you about that you just say you found. Was that significant to you?
A. Yes, it was.
THE COURT: What was the context though?
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Why was it significant to you?
A. It was significant to me because anybody, even if they walked away and they left the horses, they’re not going to leave ten, fifteen thousand dollar saddles.
THE COURT: So you’re talking about the context that Officer Luce told you that they’d been abandoned six months.
THE WITNESS: Right, right.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: And that’s the one thing. I mean you’re not—-
THE COURT: You had no idea who put the nasty hay there, did you?
THE WITNESS: Yeah. When I got there in the morning--
THE COURT: How did you know?
THE WITNESS: Because when I got there that morning there was a red truck that was hooked up. Remember I said earlier in my statement, earlier that day when we got there there was a guy in a red Dodge pickup with a yellow flatbed, was—-
THE
COURT: To deliver the nasty hay or to
remove the nasty hay?
THE WITNESS: That was to deliver the nasty hay.
THE COURT: How do you know that?
THE WITNESS: Conversation with Wheaton when we were there.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: She said she was getting rid of them on it.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. The person--
A. To go back to the--
THE COURT: We’ll allow it.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Let me ask you one quick hay question. Whoever delivered the hay, was it this guy?
A. No.
Q. Or this guy?
A. Nope.
Q. Go ahead.
A. We had never even seen them on the property there.
Q. Okay.
A. Anyways, to the thing on the abandonment there. I mean, there was like saddles there, I believe there was like some Chavez tack from a--
THE COURT: Based on everything you saw, you didn’t find a farm that had been abandoned for six months.
THE WITNESS: No. They wouldn’t have abandoned that—-
THE COURT: I understand that. The answer is yes. The answer is yes, you saw a farm that had not been abandoned for six months.
THE WITNESS: Correct, yes.
THE COURT: Mr. Dungan.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Did you see any even signs of recent abandonment?
A. No, sir.
Q. All right. And what did you see that makes you say that?
A. Well, on one thing, I mean, just the fact that the-–
MS. LAMP: Your Honor, I’m going to object to that. I think that’s a bit speculative and a little too broad, you know.
THE COURT: Well, there’s no context. Recently abandoned. I don’t know. Pretty clear from previous testimony that something wrong was going on, Mr. Dungan, before the Animal Control people got there. So I don’t know--
MR. DUNGAN: This is when Animal Control people got there, Your Honor. This is within—-
THE COURT: I know this is when it is, but something was going on before and he doesn’t have the foggiest idea because he wasn’t there. Was he? He wasn’t.
MR. DUNGAN: I’ll follow it up in a different manner.
THE COURT: I think the important, if you’re trying to show that the Animal Control Shelter are the problem here, you’ve probably got a long, high mountain to climb on that one, Mr. Dungan, I’ll be honest with you now.
MR. DUNGAN: No, that may be--
THE COURT: That’s not going to work.
MR. DUNGAN: Huh?
THE COURT: That’s not going to work if you’re blaming the Animal Control shelter from the fourteenth or fifteenth to the twenty-first. Any other comments, you got to leave. Do you understand what I’m saying, Mr. Dungan?
MR. DUNGAN: Sure.
THE COURT: I’d like to get to something that this guy is going to tell us other than he now finds that it hadn’t been abandoned for six months.
MR. DUNGAN: All right.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. There were eight horses in particular that you looked at. Correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And let’s talk about those eight and how, how they were identified to you and what it is that you did with them. And I know there was a report that you’ve seen. Do you need that in front of you to be able to testify?
A. If there was something with like notification of the horses that I could see, it would kind of help me out a lot.
MR. DUNGAN: Your Honor, could I approach him with a copy of that report?
THE COURT: Sure.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: What are we looking at now, Mr. Dungan?
MR. DUNGAN: Your Honor, that’s a copy of the Animal Control report about his visit out to the farm.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. All right. The eight horses that are going to be, we’re going to be talking about are the ones that were spray painted one through eight?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right, let’s take them in order starting with number one.
A. Number one is the brown stallion. Number one would have been a horse that would have been in the, would have been in the southeast corner of the barn in the very back stall on it.
Q. And what about that horse drew your attention to it or why did you think you needed to spend some time with it?
A. Well, we figured we’d just start in the back of the barn and work towards the front of the barn.
Q. Okay.
A. You know, not start in the middle and that was the very back horse, so we started there.
Q. Okay.
A. The first horse was the brown stallion it says here on it…
Q. Again, I know, show you the report to refresh your memory. I don’t really care what the report says. Tell me what you found.
A. All right. When we got there it, it was, it was like a dark chestnut horse in the very back corner, it wasn’t a very big horse. Most of the horses on the property weren’t, but… When we got there they, when we got to looking at them, by that time Willy had filled all the waters up, the stall was soaked on it, the horse was standing in the corner. To me the horse, to me the horse looked a little thin, but I like big, fat halter looking horses. So to me if it’s not big and fat, you know, it needs to put, needs to put weight on it, and that’s my preference, that’s what I like to see when I look at a horse. Probably the type of horses that I mainly deal in, the discipline, the discipline that we use, that’s what we want.
Q. All right. And do different horse owners feel differently than you about--
A. Different horse owners feel differently and it’s just like anything, like, you know, as opposed, let’s say a track person as opposed to a football player, right. You got a track person, you want them small, thin and in shape, you know, where a football player, the bigger the better, you know what I mean?
Q. So you like the football players.
A. Yeah, I like the football player look. I like them bigger, bulky and shiny, you know.
Q. This particular horse looked more like a track?
A. It looked more like, pardon me?
Q. Like a track runner.
A. Like a track, yeah, exactly. You know, it was thinner, more muscular of a horse, wasn’t big and fat, he had lots of definition to him.
Q. Did you see anything about that horse that suggested to you that it had been tortured in any way?
A. Absolutely not.
Q. Or that it had not been provided with adequate food and water?
A. No, the horse--the horse had like no visible cuts, scars, marks on him. Matter of fact, for being a stallion, when you walked up to the gate they were affectionate. As were like almost all the horses there.
THE COURT: Talk about this one.
THE WITNESS: Yes, this one, yeah. I mean he definitely wasn’t afraid of a person.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Is that significant for some reason?
A. Yeah, because--
THE COURT: The question was is you didn’t find any sign of torturing and did you find any sign of not maintaining food and water? Is that what you asked?
MR. DUNGAN: Yes.
THE COURT: That’s the question you were asked. Answer that one.
THE WITNESS: It’s hard to say about not maintaining the food and water. When we got there he didn’t have any water, he had a bucket in there, a little small one, and he had no hay.
THE COURT: I don’t think that’s what he’s asking though.
THE WITNESS: Right. I mean, there wasn’t signs that he had been starved.
THE COURT: He’s asking based on looking at the horse.
MR. DUNGAN: Yeah, based on the observations there.
THE WITNESS: Based on looking at the horse, no, it didn’t look like he’d been starved or, you know.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. All right. Did you end up giving this horse any care or treatment?
A. I don’t think so. Yeah. No, we more than likely didn’t. I mean just feed and water it, give it some hay and give it some water.
Q. Let’s move on to horse number two then.
MR. DUNGAN: And Your Honor, so you’re aware because I don’t think he knows the name of the horse, this is Elvis, Lucky Seven that we’re talking about.
THE COURT: What’s number one’s name? Besides brown stallion.
MR. DUNGAN: Buggy.
THE COURT: Buggy? Okay.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. All right. The number two horse, tell me about that one.
THE COURT: This is Elvis you said?
MR. DUNGAN: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Lucky Seven?
MR. DUNGAN: Yes.
THE WITNESS: That one, that one when we got it out it was thin and it had, had a really sore back leg on it, didn’t really want to move around a lot on it. Once again, his stall was flooded. We had got him out, once we had all the other horses out of the barn, we actually took him out of his stall and what hay was left after the horses got run out, we took him over there to this really nice hay and went ahead and was letting him eat, you know, just, and he didn’t want to go anywhere, you know, he just stood there and took, just ate. Pretty mellow horse on it, and I believe he was a stud colt too, yeah.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Any issues as far as the care or health of that horse that you saw?
A. That horse there we had gave it, if any of them seemed like they were in the least bit, we gave them penicillin G with Benzathine, it’s just a regular common penicillin a twelve year old kid could buy at Tractor Supply. Gave him Gentocin, which is a lot stronger of a penicillin, they kind of attack different, different types of things in the body on it. And then we gave it Bute for the pain, it’s like giving it aspirin.
Q. Okay. What did you observe as far as the injury to that horse?
A. It, the back, it’s written on here it’s the back right leg which I mean I’m going to have to agree with that because I just don’t remember what leg, you know. I do remember distinctly though it was real sore in the back end on it, walked real stiff.
Q. All right. So you were just able to determine that based on observation then?
A. Right. I mean, it wasn’t, you know, we didn’t do X-rays or nothing like that, you know, we don’t have an X-ray machine so you just kind of go by look, if the leg wasn’t dangling so it didn’t appear that, you know, it had a green stick fracture on it, but it was definitely sore. So..
Q. Was it weight bearing?
A. Not on that leg. It was on the other three legs, but not the sore one, which is common if one has an injury.
Q. And did you have some recommendations for Animal Control about that particular horse?
A. Basically to feed and water it and get it out of that stall. The way the barn was, there was three stalls on that one side. He was in the middle. Take him out of that wet stall, put him in the one next to it, it was bigger and it was dry. Mainly I think it was dry, there were no horses in there when we got there, so there was no need to water anything so nothing got flushed.
Q. Oh, so Willy would have flooded that part?
A. Right. Didn’t flush out the water tub in there. So we stuck him in, we let him eat until we were, you know, about done with everything and then we went ahead and put him in the dry stall.
Q. Move on to the number three horse then, if you would please.
A. Number three horse would have been the grulla mare-—
MR. DUNGAN: Hang on just one second. Your Honor, this is the grulla that we call Moose. Go ahead.
MS. LAMP: Your Honor, before he goes on. We’ve gone through two horses and we’ve got several more to go through. I would just think that it would be appropriate to establish the proper foundation whether he’s going from the report or whether he’s refreshing his memory, did it refresh his memory, does he need to refresh his memory. I mean, before he’s just, he’s looking at the report and testifying. I just want to make sure we know what the source of his testimony is.
THE COURT: Do you remember all this stuff or are you just going off the report?
THE WITNESS: No, I remember it. I’m using the numbers to correlate what horse it is. I don’t, I’ll be honest, I don’t remember which one we numbered which. You know what I mean? I’d have to look at the description it’s got there for the horse so I know which one I’m talking about on it.
THE COURT: That--
THE WITNESS: I mean, I could tell you, I could hand you this paper back and tell you, I mean we’d go through and the numbers aren’t going to be right on them, you know, what number they are. But I without even reading that whole thing could tell you everything about the eight that we looked at.
THE COURT: Will looking at those refresh your memory as far as the two horses you talked about so far?
THE WITNESS: Not refreshing my memory on the horses, putting the number with what the horse looked like.
MR. DUNGAN: It’s just helping us make sure we’re both talking about the same one.
THE COURT: Whose numbers are these then? Are these the owners’?
THE WITNESS: Those were my numbers, I numbered them, but it, I don’t remember which one we numbered which. I mean, there was--
THE COURT: Well, does that help you remember?
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. How many horses are we going to talk about? Eight?
THE WITNESS: Eight. The third one was the grulla mare. She was actually in a smaller paddock separated away from the herd with two other horses up by the front. She was really thin on it, once again, they didn’t, they had no hay in there for the horses whatsoever. We had drug a, I believe there was a fifty-five gallon drum that didn’t have water in it, we had filled that up, gave them hay. Looked at her. She was really thin, really skinny. She was walking around okay, a little bit sore, but that’s kind of common when they get a little skinny and it’s cold like that, the ground’s still partially frozen. That one, I know we had said it was, one thing I would have done but we didn’t there, was wormed them on it. To me they didn’t, because the rest of the herd looked fine on it. I wouldn’t say that the horse was starved as much as it was wormy, you know, that it probably either had worms or it had sand ingestion and it needed a sand flush.
THE COURT: Is this the whole herd?
THE WITNESS: Pardon me?
THE COURT: The whole herd?
THE WITNESS: Not the whole herd. That’s the thing is ninety percent of the herd looked absolutely fine. There were a few that weren’t. If you’re starving--
THE COURT: And those few--
THE WITNESS: --them the whole herd would be starved, not just a couple.
THE COURT: Those few looked wormy then?
THE WITNESS: Yeah, they looked wormy and they could have possibly had--
THE COURT: Ten percent looked wormy? You said ninety percent was fine.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, well, eight of the bunch. Whatever percentage that equals up to. Ten percent, whatever. You know, one thing a lot of people just don’t do it, is give them the Sand Clear, a lot of people just use the same wormer, but a different kind of wormer. We’ve had horses that we’ve gotten that looked exactly the same way and that’s all we did.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Change the wormer?
A. Yeah, you might try two different kinds of wormer on it. We have it down now where we have a little system we use when we worm them.
Q. And did you provide any treatment to the number three horse then?
A. Same thing. Just penicillin, both types of penicillin.
Q. And is that because of a particular problem you’re concerned about?
A. No, just because they were skinny and it was still kind of cold and it rained that day on it.
Q. Precautionary?
A. Yeah. We do the same thing when we get them on our farm. If they look in the least bit not one hundred percent, penicillin is not going to hurt them. The most it will do is give them diarrhea, worst case.
Q. And what about the number four horse?
A. Number four horse, sorrel mare. That was in the same pen as the, as the grulla on it, they say his name is Easy. Same thing, and I believe that was the one that had a little bit of discharge from the eyes on it. You know, it doesn’t say here on the sheet but we had Neomyacin, which is just a basic eye goop, just rub it on the eye, clear it up. It wasn’t nothing major. Same thing, then penicillin, both kinds of penicillin. We did do, we just pop them with both. One they’re getting twenty CC’s which is like a double dose for your first dose on it, gets the penicillin in the body at a high level on it for the first initial and then, you know, whoever was to follow up would have dropped it down to ten of each, either five of each, or, I always give penicillin G with Benzathine, the Benzathine makes it stay in the system longer. I always give that as the first one and then carry the Gentocin on. The Benzathine will stay in there for two to three days in the system.
Q. And then the number five horse.
A. Number five is the bay mare about fifteen years old. Same thing. It was just in the pen there, you know, same thing, probably needed wormed. The thing about the last two ones we talked about, about number four and number five, both the horses were kind of old on it. The bay mare-—the sorrel mare I guessed her to be twenty years old judging by her teeth on it. You’re not going to have a twenty year old fat horse.
Q. What is twenty years old to people?
A. Figure about four years for every horse, year a horse is, it’s about four years of ours.
Q. So it’s like equivalent to an eighty year old person.
A. Eighty year old person, yeah.
THE COURT: So the sorrel mare was thin too?
THE WITNESS: Yeah, but she’s eighty years old. I don’t know too many fat eighty year old people. Or horses.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. All right. The number five one, what did you find out about the age of that horse?
A. We guessed it to be about fifteen years old. Both, both of them appeared to be lactating. We, usually if they’re lactating usually they’re either in foal or they just had a foal on it. They didn’t have foals on them, so—-
THE COURT: The eighty year old horse and the bay mare are lactating?
THE WITNESS: Yeah. Well, it would be eighty in our years. About twenty years old.
THE COURT: Was the bay mare in with the grulla mare?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: And when you say--
THE WITNESS: The sorrel, the--
THE COURT: The three of them together.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. The owners of the property had taken those three with, what their reason was I don’t know. To us it appeared why they had them separated from the rest of the herd, quarantined.
MS. LAMP: Your Honor, I’m going to object. He’s speculating. How would he know what the owners had done?
THE WITNESS: Because there was only a couple skinny horses and they had them in a pen by themselves.
THE COURT: How do you know the owners did that?
THE WITNESS: Because they said, when we got to talking to Chapin, Chapin told us that the horses—-
THE COURT: Through the officers, that’s how you learned that?
THE WITNESS: That’s where the horses were—-pardon me?
THE COURT: Through the officers you learned that’s why the horses were there?
THE WITNESS: Yes. Officer Chapin had told us there…
THE COURT: That the owners had put them.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, because we had asked if they had done that. They said the owners had done that.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. So three, four and five were the skinniest horses on the farm?
A. Yup, the grulla, the sorrel and the bay.
Q. And they were all kept together.
A. Yes.
Q. And that made some sense to you.
A. Yes. Because they were, they were thin--
THE COURT: Well, why did you ask them why they did it then?
THE WITNESS: Because the owners weren’t on the property.
THE COURT: No. You asked why are they in the pen together. If that made sense to you, what difference did it make?
THE WITNESS: Yeah, well, because there was, they had those three in the one pen on it and when we get to another horse they had some that were in the barn that we wanted moved outside that they wouldn’t let us move outside. So that, there was, do you want me to….
THE COURT: I’m curious. You said---
THE WITNESS: When we were in the barn there was a bunch of yearlings in the barn. They were in one big pen together. One of the horses that was in the pen had a severe laceration on its foot. When we treated that horse which is number eight on here, it says Ice, when we treated that, because that stall was flooded and there was, manure was in there and everything, we wanted to move those horses out to the other pen. So we asked if we could move the horses outside. They had said no, we can’t move any of the horses that are on the property, those ones were already in that pen, that’s why they were there on it.
THE COURT: What’s already in that pen mean?
THE WITNESS: Those three. That grulla, the sorrel—-
THE COURT: No, the eight in the other one, or the other horses that you just said were all in---
THE WITNESS: One pen. They were in a pen inside but the pen was all wet and flooded.
THE COURT: How many when you were there?
THE WITNESS: There was probably like ten or eleven.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: Babies, yearlings.
THE COURT: Yearlings. And you were told what about those?
THE WITNESS: That they were in the barn there, that we weren’t allowed to move them.
THE COURT: You don’t know that the owners put them there.
THE WITNESS: That’s back to Chapin. Chapin’s the one who we asked if they had separated them all. They said nobody had separated the horses, they were where they were when they got there on it. And we weren’t to move them on it. And it didn’t make sense, because you had babies standing in muck, why couldn’t we put them out there. I mean, it wasn’t going to hurt nothing, you know, put them in a pen outside. So, but, so anyways that gets on to answering the question as to how we knew--
THE COURT: Back to three, four and five then. You asked the officers why are they out, three, four and five.
THE WITNESS: Yeah. Why are three, four and five out and the babies aren’t.
THE COURT: And the officer told you because the owners did that.
THE WITNESS: Because the owners put them out there, that we weren’t allowed to move them. So…
THE
COURT: You wanted to move three, four
and five?
THE WITNESS: No. I wanted to move the babies next to
three, four and five, but she said the horses were where they were, that nobody
was allowed to move them.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: So… I completely forgot your question.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Were you finished talking about the number five horse?
A. Same thing. It was lactating on it. That’s where we were. They were lactating. Either they just had a baby or they were getting ready to have a baby usually. There were no babies, so chances were it was probably going to have one. That was our speculation. We didn’t do an exam on the place to check, you know, to see if it was in foal.
Q. You just assumed that there may be a foal because the horse lactates?
A. Yeah.
Q. A mare that’s given birth a number of times throughout its life--
A. Yeah, the milk starts out clear and then the further they get along in the pregnancy it will turn white and you just simply squeeze a little bit and it comes out-—
Q. Will a mare still lactate even though she can’t, she’s not pregnant?
A. Yeah, some will, some will just, I don’t know, we’ve had one that’s, I mean she’s gaven(sic) discharge like that for a year after her baby’s been weaned even. I mean, the baby will be a year old and she’s still lactated. Just some of them do that. A lot of times it’s more common in older horses.
Q. Did you have any treatment or care recommendations as to the number five horse?
A. Same thing, just penicillin and feed and water.
Q. And again the-—
A. The biggest thing was is you had, you had hay sitting on the property, you had horses in a pasture. Feed and water them. Just feed them.
Q. All right. Then the number six horse.
A. Number six was a sorrel mare that was out in the pasture. That one I distinctly remember because it was so friendly, it come right up to you. My wife and my stepdaughter both commented on what a nice horse it was on it, so she walked right up to us. We just kind of checked her out. The big thing was, was Officer Luce had told us in a prior conversation that some of the horses had rain rot on it. When we went out there—-rain rot’s real uncommon in the winter time, it’s more of like a warm weather thing. Their hair gets, you know, their hair gets wet, it’s warm, it builds up a little bit of fungus. It’s nothing major. I mean, it’s--
Q. Did you find rain rot with these horses?
A. No. What they had said, what a lot of them had said were rain rot were either, you know, just bite marks from other horses, places where they’d rubbed up against something on it. A bite mark on a horse, that’s a common thing if you have more than one horse together.
Q. Did you find any particular problems or issues with the number six horse that needed to be taken care of?
A. No. I mean, the same thing, it was, that day she walked around like she was a little bit sore on it and we just gave her penicillin and that was it. She may have had like a little bit of clear discharge in her nose which once again that’s nothing major on it. The only time you start worrying is when it’s yellow or green, but we just went ahead and gave them penicillin. Like I said, it started to rain, it could be the first sign of it catching a cold basically.
Q. And the number seven horse then.
A. Number seven horse was the Tobiano(sic) mare that had, she had, Officer Chapin had told us that she had foaled out in the pasture. I myself did not see the baby, my stepdaughter did. I really didn’t care to walk out and see it, I didn’t think there was a need for it, so I didn’t go. But she had dried blood on the back of her legs. Any horse that usually will foal will get that as any animal, including women, you know, they’ll have a bloody discharge after having a baby, it didn’t, didn’t appear to be anything, she appeared to be mourning the baby, kind of standing away from everybody else by herself a little bit, basically grieving.
Q. Did you do anything for this horse?
A. Same thing. Just penicillin on it just to make sure no uterine infection come about or anything like that. Just as a precautionary. Any time that we have a mare, a lot of times we’ll give them the penicillin after just to make sure.
Q. Again, just precautionary?
A. Yeah, it was just from some we had, we had one that got a uterine infection after having a baby one time, so we just, we now standard do it as a precaution.
Q. Okay. And then horse number eight. You’re on the horse called Ice.
A. Number eight was in the barn. He was in the pen with the yearlings on it, real small horse, blinded in one eye, had a bad laceration on the leg. It was already granulated in on it. We took that one out, we went ahead and we just cleaned it up, alcohol, peroxide.
Q. What did you do to it?
A. Scrubbed it off. Used water, squirt the peroxide, the alcohol on there to help clean it. Took a razor blade and we lanced the wound to make sure that it wasn’t infected, that pus came out. A lot of times it will abscess underneath, you know, it might not have the discharge, infection on the top of the wound, it could be inside the wound, on it. We put triple antibiotic ointment on it, put a wet to dry pressure bandage on it to help draw out anything in there.
Q. Did you see any wire in that wound?
A. No. No, matter of fact, when we had got there Officer Chapin had said about it having the wire in the leg there, but they weren’t sure. And I said for the police department, just a simple fix, grab a police department metal detector and hit it and it’ll tell you if there’s a piece of metal in there on it. We’ve done it on the hooves of horses before that weren’t sure if they stepped on a nail or, put a metal detector on it and it tells you if there’s a piece of metal in there. For sure the police department would have a metal detector, you know, it would be easy for them to get a hold of.
Q. But you didn’t get that far while you were out there.
A. No, no.
Q. So of all the horses on the farm, these are the eight apparently that you spent the most time with or gave the most attention to.
A. Right.
Q. And it doesn’t sound like you did really a whole heck of a lot with five of them.
A. No. Pretty much the only ones that, you know, were in need of special attention were definitely the one with the wire cut on it. Kind of made a clear point that needed, you know, that needed to be changed every day on there, to carry on, to have the penicillin on it every day, so no infection. If it wasn’t treated, gangrene would build up on it, you know, then the horse will end up either losing its leg or losing its life from it.
Q. Did you recommend immediate vet care for that horse?
A. Yeah, I mean it’s nothing that, without knowing, if I would have known one hundred percent that the wire was in there, definitely have to get to the vet. You know, if there’s wire in there. If there wasn’t wire in there, I mean, any, the average person that has a horse could have very easily handled that, just penicillin, ointment, peroxide, you know, just keeping it clean, keeping it scrubbed. Proud flesh when it granulates in like that, that’s nothing, that’s nothing so to speak that you can, it’s like, what’s the best way-—it’s not something that’s done from neglect of a wound on there unless you had special stuff called Prouds Off to eat that. Some people put lime on there. I don’t think that’s the best. We use Prouds Off, it’s made for it, you know, but that would have been about the only thing they would have had to, had to have gotten, would have been some Prouds Off. Other than that anybody could have taken care of that themselves.
Q. And besides that number eight horse, but out of the eight horses, are there any other ones you felt needed special continued care?
A. The yearling colt, the paint yearling colt that was in the barn definitely needed some attention on it. Wouldn’t have hurt to have an X-ray on it to tell, either it was stifled or something was broken on it, injury looks kind of, some kind of (indiscernible) with a pulled stifle on it.
Q. And then any other horses that you thought needed any continued care?
A. The grulla. The grulla should have been taken, I mean it’s not to say that they knew it, it was new to us a year ago, but just a different worming technique on it a lot of times clears it up. We learned that the same way, just getting horses in. You know, that it looked the way they looked on it, just a special worming treatment usually clears that up, but like I said, I’d have given them Sand Clear or Bran or get the sand out or…
Q. The other five out of the eight, did they need anything as far as special continued treatment?
A. Just fed and watered, you know, just fed and watered. Of the eight basically what they, what was being done, I mean it was good that the three were kept away from everybody else, that way they weren’t getting picked on, you know, they could take it easy, didn’t have to fight for nothing, makes recuperation there. They were, you know, older horses, two of them were older anyways. Yeah, basically the only ones that really needed any attention whatsoever, I’d have continued to give the one penicillin that had the baby because it’s something I standard do on it. I would have kept an eye on the noses on it just because of the rain. Any that got penicillin, just kept an eye on that, make sure that, you know, that cleared and didn’t turn to a creamy discharge. Just basic. Those three, yes, they would have probably definitely needed a little bit more. The one, only two of them, the grulla I wouldn’t say needed to see a vet on it. The other two, you know, it wouldn’t have hurt to see one, just because one, the vet would be the only one to take a X-ray of the leg.
MS. LAMP: Your Honor, I’m only going to object that I think that if we’re going to be using the report to refresh our memory as to which number of horse we’re talking about, that it would be good if he could be consistent with that so that I knew which horses he’s talking about.
THE WITNESS: Okay. Number two, number two I would have said, you know, send to the vet so he could have taken an X-ray. That wasn’t something we were capable of doing at the time. Number eight, the bay yearling, that one, you know, like I said, because the only reason I would have sent that to a vet is just the simple fact that it had barb wire in it. I didn’t know it had barb wire for sure, I just took their word for it.
THE COURT: So someone told you there was wire there?
THE WITNESS: Yeah. The officers had told us, Officer Chapin had told us it had wire stuck in its leg. Barb wire I believe it was, I’m not sure. They said wire.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. But you weren’t able to see it?
A. No, you weren’t able to see it. That’s why I said, I mean even at that, I think we were asked if we noticed it and no, that’s why I recommended going to get a metal detector, you know, it will tell you in a second if there’s any type of metal in there. And yet it’s still cheaper than taking an X-ray of it.
Q. And I think the number three horse was the other one you were particularly concerned about?
A. Yeah, the grulla, that one didn’t need any, the number three, the grulla mare moved, that one, I wouldn’t have sent that one to the vet. I would have continued, I’d have changed something. It wasn’t, yeah, it was really thin, but with my experience I’ve seen horses like that before and it doesn’t matter, you know, just usually, just changing the worming or using the Sand Clear usually will fix that. Sometimes you’ve just got to give it a lot, a lot more than normal to do a change.
Q. So those were the most serious three of the eight?
A. Yeah. The grulla mare, I mean, the grulla mare, usually a situation like that, just give it a thing of Panacur wormer, full tube, five days later pop it with another full tube on it and at the same time give it the Sand Clear. One, the wormer’s going to, you know, a heavy does will kill the worms, two, it will give it a little bit of diarrhea, three with the Sand Clear mixed in if there’s any sand in the stomach or intestines, it will push it out.
Q. All right. Now, I know that we got a lot of details about these eight horses and we’ve talked about the most serious three of the eight. Sixty-one other horses on the farm. Did you look at those too?
A. I mean, we didn’t like individually check each one out. We went by the round bale where most of the horses were standing on it and they were, they were good looking horses. I mean, they were, they were, they were nice horses. They weren’t mean, most of them would let you pet them and didn’t see anything wrong with them.
Q. Did you see any issues with body weight?
A. No. Some of them, some of them were skinnier than the others, but that’s just like all of us in this room, you know, some of us are skinnier than others and some of us aren’t.
Q. All right. What did you do then after this examination of these horses?
A. We, well, we left. We went home I guess.
Q. Any conversation with Animal Control on the way out? You guys come to any agreements about what was going to be done or not going to be done?
A. No, they, we didn’t come to any agreement on what should have been done with them.
Q. All right. Were you asked to stay with the horses or take the horses by the time you were done?
A. No.
Q. What happened with that?
A. Well, when we had got there, the one, when they had said about the stallions, you know, they had to get the stallions out of there because they were going crazy because the mares were in there, they said that they already had a home and a place for them to go. There was no need to even move them.
Q. All right.
A. It’s a simple thing, just don’t let the horses run wild through the barn and you won’t have a problem.
Q. Well, it sounds like you guys were initially brought in either to take over the horses or take--
A. Yeah, they called us to facilitate taking all the horses.
Q. But you didn’t end up being involved in that.
A. No, sir, we did not.
Q. Why not?
A. Because on the, when we got home to the place there were, and there were issues, I mean there was definitely issues on the farm on it. Personally I wouldn’t have felt right on it, on taking them.
Q. Why?
A. Because there wasn’t enough on the property to say that these guys were mistreating the horses by any means. You had, you know, a small percentage of a whole herd that needed a little extra attention and then on top of that you only had a very small percentage of them that, you know, needed even more attention than that. It’s just, for us to come in and take all the animals away on it wouldn’t have been, wouldn’t have been right, it just, it wasn’t right. It wasn’t, it wasn’t enough there in our opinion to say, hey, you know, we need to take these. We just didn’t feel it, we did not feel that the situation was warranted enough for it.
Q. So this is not a situation where you would have recommended seizure?
A. This is the only time in our history that we have not taken the animals. Of us being in business. It’s the only time and I mean it just, it’s the only time we’ve actually said, you know, we don’t, no, we’re not take--we don’t want them. We’ve never done that before. In almost every case that we’ve been to where we’ve taken the animals we’ve justified, you know it was justifiably taken them and it wasn’t this time.
Q. With such a high percentage of that herd being in the shape that you’ve described, if they had not had adequate food, water and shelter throughout the winter, could that herd have looked as good as it did on the day that you were there?
A. No, no. There, I mean, there was nothing to eat. If there was any, any plant material underneath the snow, there’s no nutritional value that time of the year on it, I mean, no. I mean, they would have, they’re not carnivores so I mean there was nothing for them, you know, there would have been nothing for them to eat, they wouldn’t have been walking, they would have all been dead.
Q. Was there--
MS. LAMP: Your Honor, he’s rendering an opinion and I’m assuming that the court is not taking that as an expert opinion since there hasn’t been a foundation properly laid.
THE COURT: That’s correct.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Is there anything that you saw on that farm that would suggest to you that those horses hadn’t been fed and watered on a regular basis?
A. No.
MR. DUNGAN: All right. I don’t have any other questions, Your Honor. Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION (At 3:04 p.m.)
BY MS. LAMP:
Q. We thought your name was Mr. Ratcliff. Could you give me your name again so I can write it down?
A. Bradley Charles--
Q. Charles? Just your last name.
A. Oh, Chaltry. C-h-a-l-t-r-y.
Q. Mr. Chaltry, is it a fair statement to say that when you arrived there in the barn you were appalled by the conditions?
A. I wouldn’t say appalled by the conditions, no.
Q. So you thought they were okay?
A. I’ve seen a lot worse.
Q. Why don’t you describe specifically what you observed in the barn? Aside from the behavior of the horses, but the condition of the barn itself as you arrived there on that day.
A. The condition of the barn on it, structural-wise, the steel, needed some new sheets of steel plates on it, it needed sheets of steel nailed back on. The stalls needed some mending on it, one of the gates was off. You see a lot of barns though where they just tie them like that.
Q. I’m just asking you, you know, what you observed that day, not things about other owners.
A. Yeah, it was like a little tack spot, it was messy. They were definitely, they were definitely slobs on it, they definitely had a clean up issue.
Q. Did you notice steak knives or something like that or syringes there in the barn?
A. Yeah, on one we had found a steak knife. Syringes were, syringes I think were all in the tack room on it. That’s not uncommon either, so, I mean if people are giving their own shots.
Q. Well, let’s go back and do this one at a time. Tell me about the steak knife. Give me the condition--
A. The steak knife, I think when we were walking through the barn we found a steak knife buried down in the ground.
Q. Where in the barn?
A. In the aisle way.
Q. How did you come to find it?
A. I think I stepped on it.
Q. Was it sticking up?
A. No, no. I stepped on it. I didn’t get cut.
Q. You mean it was like laying flat so that the blade was not up.
A. Yes. Yes, ma’am.
Q. You stepped on it, okay. That’s how you found it. It wasn’t under the dirt buried, it was--
A. Well, it was. It was right by the gate is what I was trying to do was jig the gate so that I could get into the one pen there and when I did my foot mashed the mud and there was the steak knife.
Q. Okay. I got you now. And then tell me about the syringes that you found.
A. There were syringes in the tack stall. As to what they were used for I couldn’t tell you.
Q. How many?
A. I really don’t recall, ma’am.
Q. Do you know if it was less than five?
A. I honestly don’t remember. It wasn’t, it wasn’t like a thing for me that was, it wasn’t a big enough thing to really remember, you know, I mean it wasn’t…
Q. You remember seeing syringes?
A. Yeah, I remember seeing syringes, a lot of artificial insemination stuff on the property.
Q. But I’m asking you about the syringes. So there was, you remember that as I understand.
A. Yeah, because anything I could have used I--
Q. Okay, so ---
A. I do recall for a fact there was one box--
Q. It’s a yes or no question, so it’s going to work better if I ask the questions and you answer what I ask. Okay?
A. There was more than five. There was a box of a hundred of them.
Q. Okay. Where --
THE COURT: Syringes?
THE WITNESS: Yeah, it was a box of a hundred on the shelf.
THE COURT: All in a box?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
MS. LAMP: Were there--
THE COURT: How do you know there was a hundred?
MS. LAMP: I’m sorry, Judge.
THE WITNESS: Because I have a bunch of boxes of them at my house as well.
THE COURT: I mean they’re labeled a hundred syringes, is that what you’re saying?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Oh, okay. Miss Lamp?
BY MS. LAMP:
Q. Were there any that were not in the box?
A. Yes. There was a couple that were on the floor.
Q. So are you saying less than five on the floor?
A. Like I said, ma’am, I don’t remember. I remember seeing some on the floor, but as to, I didn’t count them.
Q. Okay. Now, you talked about the muck on the floor. Could you describe that a little bit further for me please?
A. Yeah. When we got there the, like I said, we had started watering, the boy Willy just started flooding, I mean his way of washing out a water tub was he just let it run for a half hour to forty-five minutes to flush it out. My way of washing them is to take them outside the barn---
Q. You know, I’m not asking---
THE COURT: Mr. Chaltry. She wants to know about the muck.
THE WITNESS: They were, yeah, the barn was flooded.
THE COURT: Muck.
THE WITNESS: On it.
BY MS. LAMP:
Q. I’m asking about the muck.
A. Yeah, it was…
Q. You described it as muck. Is that water or is that something else?
A. Well, it’s a dirt floor barn on it, so when the water overflowed as the horses walked through it, it caused mud. And yeah, there was manure.
Q. Did you observe feces?
A. Yeah, they’re horses.
Q. Was there an excessive amount of feces?
A. Not an excessive amount, no.
Q. Okay.
THE COURT: Is there a particular level of feces that you expect to find?
THE WITNESS: Well, yeah, I mean--
THE COURT: You put it in a bucket and say, well, we got too much, or we don’t have enough today?
THE WITNESS: Well, horses, I mean…
THE COURT: Yes or no.
THE WITNESS: They--
THE COURT: I mean you said excessive. I don’t know, how do you decide it’s not excessive?
THE WITNESS: Yeah. They, they go to the bathroom so much in a day and--
THE COURT: Yeah, I know that, yeah, so was it excessive?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: It was not excessive.
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MS. LAMP:
Q. Mr. Chaltry, do you have horses at your place, do you keep and maintain them?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. How many?
A. We have ten horses.
Q. And those are yours that are there all the time?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Okay. And was, does your barn have the same amount of feces in it as you observed in this barn?
A. We don’t keep our horses in the barn.
Q. Okay.
A. On it, unless we’re going to a horse show.
Q. So where do you keep them?
A. We have them out in pastures.
Q. Okay. So that’s a different situation then.
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Okay. Now, let’s go back to horse number one--no, let’s go to horse number two. Do you have that in front of you?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Okay. Horse number two… It will take me a while to get to horse number two.
A. That’s all right. Take your time.
Q. Okay. Horse number two, you administered--why don’t you tell me what you administered because you’ll probably say it better than I do.
A. Penicillin G with Benzathine, Gentamicin and Bute.
Q. And what were, and who administered these and how were they administered?
A. I administered them and everything was given intramuscular.
Q. What does that mean? With an injection?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you administer the medicine to all the horses?
A. Clarify that. The ones that were given medicine?
Q. The ones that you gave, the ones that you testified were given the three drugs that you mentioned, are you the one that administered them by injection?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Okay. And what were the specific indications that led you to administer those three particular medications?
A. On this horse right here?
Q. On this horse, yes.
A. One, it wasn’t of norm, so it, you know, it was sore, so penicillin, penicillin’s just common, anytime there’s anything, an injury, a little bit of discharge from the nose, anything, you give it penicillin. Gave it Bute because it was sore on the back leg.
Q. Okay. Is Bute the same as penicillin?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. Okay.
A. Bute is for pain. It’s like extra strength aspirin.
Q. Did you give the penicillin because of the soreness?
A. Yeah. I mean, we don’t know why it was sore and you give it penicillin, could have been anything going on, could have had an infection somewhere, anywhere, anything, you know, give it penicillin. Penicillin’s not going to hurt anything, you know what I mean, so just give it as a precautionary thing.
Q. Okay.
A. The most it will do is give a horse like diarrhea.
Q. And I’m, what I’m, the way that I’m going to ask you these questions just so you know is we’re going to go through each horse and I want to know specifically what indications you had that you gave each medication for. So that I know. Just so you know where I’m going and how I’m going to ask you. Okay. So the penicillin, you gave that because of the soreness on the leg. Is that the only reason that you administered that?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And then the Bute, what was the reason for that?
A. Because it was sore on the leg.
Q. And that was to treat the pain, correct?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Okay. And there was one other drug?
A. No, ma’am. Penicillin G, Gentamicin is penicillin. Gentocin.
Q. Penicillin G with Benz---
A. Benzathine.
Q. Benzathine.
A. Right.
Q. And--
A. Gentocin.
Q. Sorry, I can’t say those words. A little too long for me. I see the ten CCs of penicillin G with Benzathine?
A. Benzathine.
Q. Benzathine. And then I see ten CCS Gentamicin. Is that what that is?
A. Yes.
Q. And five CCs Bute.
A. Yes.
Q. That looks like three different kinds of medicine. Am I correct?
A. And I told you all three, the penicillin G with Benzathine and the Gemtamicin I said earlier, both of those are penicillin, they’re just two different kinds of penicillin.
Q. Okay, they’re two different kinds of penicillin. Okay, I got you, all right. Moving on to horse number three. What specific observa--did you administer the same drugs to horse number three?
A. Just the penicillin G and the Gentocin, Gentamicin. Gentocin is the brand name.
Q. Okay. So those are the two kind of penicillin.
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. So you administered the same two kinds of penicillin, but you did not administer the Bute. Correct?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. And what were the reasons that you administered the two kinds of penicillin to the number three horse?
A. The grulla, just because she was standing, in case something else was going on, on it. You know, my guess was that it was, needed wormed or Sand Clear, but in case it wasn’t, and like I had said earlier too, it was a cold day and it rained on it, she probably had a little clear discharge in her nose.
Q. Well, the question that I’m going to ask you then is did she have clear discharge or did she not have clear discharge, or do you not recall?
A. She had to have had clear discharge because I gave her penicillin.
Q. Do you specifically remember the clear discharge?
A. No, but I gave her penicillin, so it had to have had it.
Q. And that’s, that’s what my question is, whether you recall it, you know--
A. Well, I had to have because I gave her the penicillin.
Q. And what about number four, it looks like you gave the same two types of penicillin?
A. Yeah, and it wasn’t on there. We gave that one Neomyacin for its eyes too just because it had a little bit, little bit of same thing, discharge in the eyes.
Q. What kind of discharge?
A. Neomy--just discharge from the eye. It wasn’t to the point where--
Q. Could you describe the discharge?
A. It was like a watery eye on a horse.
Q. Clear discharge?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And then what were the reasons for the two penicillins on this horse?
A. Same thing, it had a watery eye, little bit of clear discharge from the nose and…
Q. And do you remember the clear discharge or are you assuming that it must have been that way or you would have not given--
A. Yeah, it must have been that way because I gave it to it. If it would have, if it would have had like a really mucousy thing on it I wouldn’t have just gave it ten and ten on it, I would have, if it had like a real mucousy on it, we would have just went ahead and popped it with a full twenty CCs of Genecin on it.
Q. And so you’re saying the worst thing that could happen is diarrhea. If the penicillin was not--
A. Yeah, giving the penicillin at that type of a dose, at a twenty milliliter does, it’s a standard dose for a first dose of penicillin and even if it wasn’t sick, it’s not going to do anything to it. If it wasn’t sick--
Q. What if the hose is emaciated? Would you agree that providing something that could cause diarrhea to an emaciated horse might lead to a disastrous outcome?
A. See, at the time when I was there those horses did not look to the point where they were emaciated on it.
Q. Even the grulla mare?
A. The grulla mare was very thin, but like I said, I’ve had, I’ve taken in horses for police departments and stuff before that looked the same way and no, ma’am, they did not die from giving them penicillin and there…
Q. But what, I guess my question’s a little different then. I guess what I’m asking is does penicillin that could cause diarrhea and an emaciated horse seem like a good combination to you?
A. At twenty CCs it wasn’t going to give it diarrhea.
Q. Okay. So you don’t even think that diarrhea would have been a possible symptom from the medication you were giving her?
A. Not from twenty CCs, no, ma’am.
Q. So none of the horses would have even risked the problem of diarrhea?
A. Not with twenty CCs.
Q. So then what my question would still be is do you think that that’s probably not a good idea to give them medicine that might inflict diarrhea to an emaciated horse?
A. If you gave a emaciated horse, to give him enough penicillin to cause it to have diarrhea you’re going to have to be giving it like fifty to sixty CCs.
Q. Okay.
A. Of it. On a full size horse. Yeah, on a quarter horse.
Q. But would it be a good idea to do that if it was emaciated?
A. You know what? Yes, it would be. Even if it was a chance of diarrhea because you can still give them electrolytes on it and there’s other things--
Q. Are electrolytes in the penicillin or is that something different?
A. No, that’s what we poured in all their water on it.
Q. Okay. But I’m asking you specifically about that.
A. Yes, the vet would probably give them penicillin. A vet, we’ve had horses that were, come to the farm emaciated and the vet, that’s why we gave them penicillin, that’s the same thing, we give penicillin. Emaciated, they’re still standing the most chance of having an infection so you’ve got to give them something for the infection. You’re not going to say hey, you’re skinny, you know, I’m not going to give you something because there’s a possibility. I mean, there’s a possibility if I take aspirin that it’s going to cause some type of problem.
Q. Right. But you specifically as I recall said that that was one possible outcome, the worst case scenario is they could have diarrhea, but now as I understand you, you’re saying that that wouldn’t have been possibly anyway.
A. Not at a twenty CC dose. I mean, we, it’s not going to hurt a horse to give it penicillin, even if it wasn’t sick. I mean, that’s what I’m saying--
Q. And it’s not going to cause it to get diarrhea.
A. One of the worst side effects of giving something penicillin, even a lot of penicillin, you’re not going to overdose and die from penicillin. You might get diarrhea from it.
Q. But you’re saying that--initially when you testified---
A. That would be an overdose--
Q. Let me ask the question. It works better that way if I ask the question and you answer. Okay? Works better for everybody. What I’m asking you is, first as I understood your testimony you were saying that you thought that the worst thing that could have happened to these horses was that they could have got diarrhea from the penicillin you gave them, but as I understand you now you’re saying that you did not give them enough penicillin to give them diarrhea so it would not have been an issue to begin with.
A. Right. That’s what I just said.
Q. Okay. So, well, I just need to make sure we’re clear because we’re recording this and this is an official proceeding so it’s important that you and I are clear as to what you’re testifying to.
THE COURT: Ask your question, Miss Lamp. Ask the question. Do you have a question?
MS. LAMP: Yes, I do, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Ask it.
BY MS. LAMP:
Q. Was there anything else that you treated that horse with?
A. After all that, I forgot what horse we’re on now.
Q. Four.
A. Number four?
Q. Yes.
A. I believe that was it, ma’am.
Q. Okay. And then moving on to horse number five. What were the specific indications that led you to treat it looks like with the two types of penicillin?
A. Same thing. It would have had a clear discharge from its nose because I gave both penicillin G with Benzathine and the Genecin.
Q. Now, on these horses where it does not say clear discharge on the report, did you mention that to Officer Chapin that there was a clear discharge or is that just something that you recall now or you know that you would have only given it to them unless there was clear discharge?
A. Yeah, I would have only given it to them if there was clear discharge. I mean, at that it wouldn’t have been something I would have probably had to even say to her, it would have been something that would have been noticeable. Usually it starts right in the corners of the nose and then sometimes it will run down, sometimes it won’t. Sometimes it will just look like it’s wet in the nostril area. But it could be the first signs of getting sick and that day, like I said, it was cold and rainy, showed a little indication, better to be safe than sorry.
Q. Now, did you testify that this horse was either pregnant or had recently foaled?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Okay. And what led you to believe that?
A. Like I said, it was lactating. When you, when you squeeze the teats on it, discharge would come out.
Q. And what color was the discharge?
A. Clear, I believe.
Q. Is that the normal color that comes out when they’re lactating?
A. Yeah, up until like the last couple weeks, the last month it will start to get white just like normal milk. And then of course it will carry on while she’s nursing and then after she quits nursing it will go back to clear and then most of the times it’ll dry up. Like I said, it’s real common in older horses that they carry, they continue to lactate, like I said, I’ve seen them go a year, year and a half.
Q. Did the horse strike you as being pregnant though when you saw her?
A. Seemed like she had a rounded belly on her that hung down which was a good possibility, but like I said, just the fact, just the fact that she had discharge coming out of her teats was what we judged it by.
Q. That and also the rounded belly, did that support your--
A. Yeah, where the belly kind of comes down a little bit. The horse, the horse was older so to say its belly hung down, when a horse gets kind of old their backs dip down, they call it swayback on it, it could have been from that, it could have been that she had a baby but she lactated so chances are…
Q. Did she seem emaciated to you?
A. No.
Q. Did she seem thin?
A. She seemed like a old horse, like a normal old horse would look.
Q. And I guess what my question is, does a normal older horse look thin?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Did she look thin to you?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Okay. Number six, what were the reasons that you gave that horse the two types of penicillin?
A. Oh, that was, that was the big horse that was out in the pasture. One, just had the same thing, a little bit of clear discharge in the nose on it.
Q. And in order to determine that it was lactating did you squeeze the teats?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you do that on all the horses that you, the horses that you said were lactating?
A. Yeah, yeah. All the ones that looked like they were lactating.
Q. And was, did all the horses have clear discharge?
A. I believe so, but I couldn’t be one hundred percent on it.
THE COURT: So six was lactating too?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MS. LAMP:
Q. Did that horse appear to be pregnant to you?
A. Like I say, we were judging it--yes, that one was fat on it. That one I really remember because like I said, it was such a sweet, it was a sweet horse, it was nice. My wife said she liked it, she would have wanted it, same with my daughter. My daughter was actually the one that brought it over to us.
Q. And taking you back to number four. That one you also said was pregnant and lactating.
A. Yes.
Q. Did that one look pregnant as well?
A. That one I can’t recall if it looked pregnant or if it was just because it was lactating. But I’d say, let me back that up, ma’am, I’m going to, yes, I’d say it looked pregnant because it was probably, it was fat. Other than that, we’d have never checked to see if it was even lactating. There would have been no, no point to check it. I’d say she had a nice belly on her, you know, the belly would have been rounded to at least show evidence.
Q. And how about number seven?
A. That was, is that--
Q. It appeared to be the one that-—
A. That’s the one that had the stillborn on it?
Q. Yup.
A. Okay. What are you asking, about the penicillin on that one?
Q. About the reasons that you gave it two types of penicillin.
A. Because it, we, one, she had like a bloody discharge, dried blood on the back of her legs, and on the farm we had a mare that was actually my daughter’s first pony gave birth and she come down with a uterine infection from the birth, so ever since then we’ve always after a mare has had a baby we’ll give her some penicillin. Especially that one, to what we were told, that had the baby just recently, like within a, like last couple days, day or two on it, so that was part of the reason there.
Q. Did she also have a clear discharge coming from her nose?
A. On it, no, that one would have just been because it had the baby.
Q. And number eight. That is the one with the wound.
A. Yeah, it’s the one with the bad leg.
Q. Is that why you gave it the penicillin?
A. For the bad leg.
Q. For the bad leg? Okay. And what is your daughter’s name?
A. Aafhan.
Q. How do you spell that?
A. A-a-f-h-a-n.
Q. And how old is she?
A. Fifteen.
Q. Okay. Did you often bring her along when you do a rescue?
A. Not usually. Usually we do it during the day, but we didn’t want her, we knew we were going to be there for a while and we didn’t want her home by herself.
Q. Okay.
A. Just waited till she got out of school.
Q. And she’s a horse person too as I understand it.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Who is, is the veterinarian that you as I understand told Officer Luce that you worked underneath, the veterinarian?
A. We made it real clear from day one, made it real clear that we did not carry any veterinary license, that we were not licensed in any way—-
THE COURT: I think she asked you what’s the veterinarian doctor you work under.
THE WITNESS: Oh, Dr. Herman.
BY MS. LAMP:
Q. Okay. Can you spell Dr. Herman’s name?
A. H-e-r-m-a-n.
Q. And what’s Dr. Herman’s first name?
A. Jonathon.
Q. And is he part of a veterinary practice?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And what practice is that?
A. (No audible response)
Q. Do you know the name of it?
A. No, ma’am, I don’t.
Q. How do you know Dr. Herman?
A. I caught his cow loose in Romulus for the Romulus Police Department.
Q. When?
A. Probably three years ago.
Q. Aside from that one incident of catching this cow, did you have any other contact with him?
A. No, ma’am. I mean I, I didn’t use him as a veterinarian. He was a veterinarian of a friend of ours. At that time we had a veterinary for, Dr. Rymal’s office, and a month before I met Dr. Herman she relocated to I believe it was North Carolina.
THE COURT: How do you spell Dr. Rymal’s name? Last name.
THE WITNESS: I believe it’s R-y-m-a-l, but I could be wrong.
THE COURT: Okay, that’s fine. Thank you.
THE WITNESS: And her name was Dr. Parker.
BY MS. LAMP:
Q. Do I understand that you then switched to Dr. Herman for your own vet, or did I misunderstand what you were saying?
A. Yes, ma’am. We didn’t have a veterinarian at that point because ours had just moved and we needed a veterinarian.
Q. So Dr. Herman became your veterinarian.
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And how long has he been your veterinarian?
A. Three years.
Q. Three years. And who is the vet tech that you brought out with you?
A. We didn’t have a vet tech.
Q. As I understood it, that you had brought a vet tech out with you initially when you were turned away?
A. No, ma’am. I brought my brother-in-law.
Q. Your brother-in-law is not a vet tech?
A. No, ma’am. He’s a construction worker and a fireman.
Q. Was there anybody else with you when you went there initially with your brother-in-law?
A. It was just the two of us.
Q. Your wife was not there.
A. No, ma’am.
Q. Okay. You seem to have some difficulty with Officer Luce’s name today. Is that a fair statement?
A. Yeah. If it being Luce or Louse, yes.
Q. Okay. And do you recall when you initially approached Animal Control, I believe it was Officer Wheaton and Officer Dunlap, that would be Machell Dunlap, that you told them that Lucy had sent you?
A. I wouldn’t have said Luce. I would have said that either Chief Luce or Chief Louse would have—-at that time I would have probably known who it was, but she told us that she was calling there to tell them who we were when we got there.
Q. Who told you that?
A. The chief.
Q. The chief did.
A. Yeah.
Q. But is it possible when you got there that you identified her incorrectly? Is it possible that you said Lucy had sent you?
A. I mean, I would have used it as chief. Especially talking to another officer on it.
THE COURT: So you’re saying it’s not possible you said Lucy?
THE WITNESS: I could have said Lucy, but I would have called her chief, either Chief Luce or Louse, yes.
THE COURT: Oh, I see. Okay.
BY MS. LAMP:
Q. Or Chief Lucy?
A. Yes.
Q. That’s possible too, okay.
A. I mean, I would assume there’s going to be one chief in Jackson.
Q. Is Dr. Herman also the personal friend that you referred to as a veterinarian that goes with you when you do rescue?
A. No--yeah, some—-he’s gone with us a coup-—a couple of times on it. Sometimes they just—-he’s been with us on one big rescue, a couple other times we’ve just been to, not so much as a rescue as where somebody was handing over something to the city, so it was like a mutual thing.
Q. Tell me about the big rescue. Is that the suicide rescue?
A. Yeah. It was one of the bigger ones where you’ve got that many different animals.
Q. How many animals was that?
A. Uh--
Q. Approximately.
A. About forty.
Q. Forty, okay.
A. Maybe fifty. In between forty and fifty.
Q. And what purpose was he there for on that rescue?
A. Just happened to be at the house at the time.
Q. Was he there in a veterinary capacity?
A. At the house?
Q. At the rescue when you were rescuing those animals.
A. No.
Q. Did I understand that he came with you to rescue the animals?
A. Yeah, he went with us, just the simple fact there was so many animals on it, I needed a couple trailers to go, he would have been another driver. You know, I’ve got a couple trucks, trailers, he would have drove.
Q. Was he just there then in a driver capacity or as a veterinarian?
A. Not as a veterinarian, no, ma’am.
Q. Okay.
A. He would have been the veterinarian as soon as we got back to the farm.
Q. Have you ever taken him with you to a rescue other than that, well, you said there were a couple other times, right?
A. Yeah. Well, they were like mutual things where somebody was in trouble with the city for having something and—-
Q. Like what?
A. Pigs one time. Sheep, some goats. You know, where he just went with us, because, like I said, he was at the farm at the time.
Q. So at the times that he went there he was not going in a veterinary capacity.
A. No, ma’am.
Q. Has he ever gone in a veterinary capacity with you to any of the sites where you’re rescued animals?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. Have you ever consulted with him at the sites where you’ve gone to rescue animals before?
A. No, because if it’s something I can’t handle I won’t try.
Q. Okay. Did Dr. Herman, did you consult with him when you were here at the farm?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. Are you a vet tech?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. Did you tell Chief Luce or any of the other officers that you were working under the authority of Dr. Herman or under his ambit(sic), I’m trying to think of a way to word it.
A. When she called to ask us, you know, if we knew anything medically-wise about the horses, we told her that we do a lot of times because he’s a personal friend of ours, we will go on calls to help him out, but we made it very clear that we were not licensed in any way on it.
Q. Why did you bring up, why would the doctor have even come into the conversation if you weren’t working under the, under consultation with him?
A. They just, Chief Luce just asked who it was. I mean, it was just--
Q. But how did his name come up?
A. And Officer Chapin. Because they asked what vet.
Q. What vet what?
A. What vet do we ride around with. And we told them.
Q. Did you ever tell Officer Luce or any of the other officers that you were coming there with a vet tech or that you had brought a vet tech with you?
A. No, ma’am. We made it, like I said, we made it very clear that we were not veterinarians and that’s why I believe yourself as a prosecutor--
Q. But my question was not whether you made it clear. It was did you ever tell them that you were coming there with a vet tech?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. Okay. Do you know any vet techs?
A. Sure. A girl Amy that works with Dr. Jon sometimes.
Q. Does she ever go on rescues with you?
A. No, ma’am. I’ve only seen her one time.
Q. You mentioned you had a web site for your rescue on the computer. Is that correct?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. What is the web site?
A. It’s Critter Places dot com.
Q. Is that specifically for the rescue operation?
A. No, ma’am. It’s pony rides and everything on there.
Q. Pardon?
A. It’s got the pony ride company on there as well.
Q. And the rescue?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Okay.
A. And then the Ratcliffs, they do more removals in the Washtenaw.
Q. I’m sorry?
A. And the Ratcliff Animal Removal, it’s under Animal Removal Services in the Washtenaw, Wayne and Oakland County phone book, and Monroe.
Q. Is there a web site for that?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. Okay. Now--
A. Well, other than probably it would be in on the Yellow Pages.
Q. Right, right.
A. You know what I mean.
Q. But not on a—-
A. No.
Q. Okay. Now, has, in the past has your efforts been focused on the removal of the animals?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And is that what you understood you were coming there to do on this occasion?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Was to remove the animals? What—-
A. To assess them and then to eventually, yes, to-—
Q. Eventually remove them?
A. To take them off the property on it.
Q. But you weren’t expecting that you were coming to remove them that day then?
A. No, ma’am. We were told that there was a seventy-two hour hold on the horses.
Q. Okay. And so you were coming in to assess them.
A. Yes.
Q. And in what way were you coming in to assess them?
A. Well, like we told her, we wanted to come in and we wanted to see what, what the horses were like and everything because we, if they were, if they were just a bunch of horses that had to be put down, I mean, that would have cost me a fortune to try to get rid of them, you know what I mean? You can’t, it’s like six hundred bucks a horse or something like that to get them removed and I didn’t want to have to pay six hundred times seventy, you know.
Q. Is your--
A. I can’t afford that.
Q. Is your organization a rescue, a non-profit rescue?
A. Yes, ma’am. It’s all privately funded.
Q. Okay. And what is the purpose, what is like your operating statement?
A. I don’t get what you mean by that.
Q. What is the purpose of the non-profit?
A. That you like doing what you’re doing I guess.
Q. So you, I guess can you elaborate a little bit exactly what you do so I understand.
A. There’s no money in it.
Q. Okay.
A. There’s no money in it. So we do it, we do it for our own likings I guess, we do it because we don’t want to see nothing happen to the animals. If we don’t provide a home for the animals to go to, you know, you don’t know what’s going to happen to them.
Q. Okay. So is it your purpose to go in, remove the animals and adopt them out, or do you keep them yourself or what do you do?
A. Ninety-nine percent of all the animals, we find places for them. I mean, once in a while like chickens, we’ll keep the chickens, you know, or sometimes we’ll, the kids will keep a rabbit or, you know what I mean? And we got two swans on our pond that were rescue, we got three ducks on our farm that were rescue. You know what I mean?
Q. Right.
A. Some of it, you know, it depends on what it is, depends if we keep it.
Q. So what type of condition did you want the horses to be in if you were going to take them and what is your criteria?
A. I didn’t want to have to worry about burying seventy horses once I got them to my place or getting rid of them, whatever. I mean, I didn’t, the person that, in our area that does it, it’s six hundred dollars to remove a dead horse and it’s, I don’t have forty-two thousand dollars to remove horses that, you know what I mean, especially it’s non-profit, so I would have to bite that bill myself. So, and I don’t have forty-two thousand dollars just to give away.
Q. So what would you, so what were you expecting to come there and do?
A. I—-
Q. They could be emaciated, but not super emaciated? I mean, I don’t understand—-
A. Yeah, if there was, if you walk in there and the horse, like I said, like the grulla for instance, perfect example. The grulla, those three in that one pen, to me that’s not an issue. I mean, like I said, there’s, worm them, Sand Clear, feed them. We’ve had a horse that we got looked exactly like that grulla and it didn’t matter what you fed it, but once we figured out to give it the special worming where we give it a tube of one wormer, five days later give it a tube of another--
Q. I guess you’re exceeding or going in a little bit-—
A. If they were standing and walking, we’d have been glad to take them.
Q. Okay. Did they ask you to take them while you were there on that day?
A. No, ma’am, because there was a seventy-two hour hold on them.
Q. So you, they did not ask you to take them.
A. No.
Q. They didn’t ask you to come back in seventy-two hours and take them?
A. Right. Said the horses weren’t allowed to leave the property. Within seventy-two hours we weren’t, we didn’t talk to Chief Luce after that point.
Q. And I’m asking you at the time you were there did anybody say, can you come back in seventy-two hours--
A. No.
Q. –-and remove these horses.
A. No.
Q. So you were never asked to remove them?
A. When we were on the property, no.
Q. No. You discussed potentially moving them at an earlier time. Is that correct?
A. Chief Luce had told us we were the place for them to go to on it. That’s why she was so adamant about us coming out.
Q. Did I understand that when you come to take the animals that you also take the gear that goes with the animals, is that correct?
A. Yeah. We always get the feed dishes, the water things that they have, any type of little crate or something they go in, we always mandate that we get the stuff that comes with them.
Q. What do you take with horses?
A. Personal stuff. Um—-
Q. I assume they didn’t have crates.
A. Any—-pardon me?
Q. I assume you don’t take a crate with a horse.
A. Yeah, no, ma’am. It would be a big one though. Lot of times if like, I don’t know, one instance the horse had this ball that hung from its stall and it liked the ball, so we took the ball and when we were taking all the horses we’d take the feeders, the water, you know what I mean, anything that will help us because we are, we don’t, we don’t take money for it. But every little bit that you get helps, the food, you know, anything that will go with it to help it out.
Q. And maybe I misunderstood you, but did you think that you were going to take the trailers there on the property?
A. Chief Luce said that when we came out that there were trailers, that they needed to get rid of the trailers, the horses, there were saddles, blankets, a lot of it needed to go.
Q. Do you normally take saddles and blankets?
A. Yes and no. It’s about fifty-fifty.
Q. Okay. And do you normally take trailers?
A. We have on one occasion.
Q. Did you think that you were going to take the trailer and keep it, is that what you understood?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Okay. What would you do with the trailer when you were done with it?
A. Keep it.
Q. Keep it, okay, all right.
A. Just use it for the same thing.
Q. How do you get rid of the animals when you are adopting them out? How does that work?
A. Usually people, people call us most of the time on it. You know, hey, we want, you know, we want a horse or whatever and then it’s a matter of me going out, taking a look at the place, seeing if the place is suitable, you know. It, if they’re capable of taking care of it. And then go from there.
Q. And where do you go from there?
A. On either making arrangements for them to come and get it and for, or for us to take it.
Q. Are there any financial arrangements that go along with it?
A. Yes, ma’am. There’s a different adoption fee for, for everything and basically depending upon, you know, like how long we have to keep them or whatever. Like I said, basically just covers what it costs us to take care of that animal while we have it.
Q. So if you had a horse that you’d rescued that you’d had for twenty days and a horse that you’d rescued that you’d had for sixty days and assuming the horses are in essentially the same condition, the horse that you had to keep for sixty days would be more an adoption fee than the other.
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Okay. Do you ever, does the adoption fee ever include anything like caring for the horses or does it just include your out of pocket expenses?
A. It just covers our out of pocket expenses.
Q. If there’s veterinary care, would that be part of the adoption fee as well?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Okay. So you seek to recover whatever costs that you put in by the time that you adopt it out.
A. Right. Just what we have into it.
Q. Right, okay, I got you.
A. And we allow for five dollars a day per horse is what we do. Of course, if we’ve had it for a year we don’t, it’s usually like a two hundred dollar thing if we’ve had it for a year.
Q. Okay. And could you describe the dead horse that you observed?
A. On the property?
Q. Mm-Hmm.
A. It was quarantined in a horse trailer.
Q. When you say quarantined, what do you mean?
A. It wasn’t laying in the middle of the pasture. It was out of the pasture in a confined space.
Q. When you came the first day with your brother-in-law, did you talk primarily to Officer Wheaton or Officer Machell Dunlap?
A. We, Dunlap just came out for one second out of the barn.
Q. Is it fair to say that your relationship there got off to a little bit of a rocky start?
A. It was, I don’t know why she was rude to us. I mean, that was just about it.
Q. Did you interpret her behavior to be rude?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Okay. And what was it about it that you thought was rude?
A. The fact that Chief Luce had called us to come out and we got there and we were told to go away.
Q. And you’re talking about Officer Wheaton was rude?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Was Officer Dunlap rude too?
A. No, I, she just poke for just a brief second.
Q. What did she tell you?
A. She just said that we weren’t allowed to go in the barn on it at that time.
Q. So would it be fair to say that it was getting off to a rocky start?
A. No.
Q. After you had driven all the way out there?
A. No, it wasn’t getting off to a rocky start, that’s why we went home and we called Chief Luce, just asked, you know, hey, what’s going on here. If it had got off to a rocky start, I would have never came back.
Q. Where did you drive from?
A. From by Detroit Metro Airport.
Q. So that’s a pretty long drive.
A. Right.
Q. Right. And what--
A. If it had got off to a bad start, I would have never came back.
Q. Right. I’m just saying as I understand it you had a little bit of an exchange there at the horse farm as you felt, as you interpreted with Officer Wheaton.
A. We didn’t have an exchange. Like I said, she was just a little bit, I couldn’t understand why we drove out there--
Q. You may be interpreting exchange differently than I am. I’m not talking about any type of altercation.
A. Right.
Q. I’m just saying that you came there to help and you were turned away--
A. Yup.
Q. And you had an exchange of words in that sense that I’ve just described.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay, all right. Why didn’t you call Officer Luce when you were out there at the farm?
A. Because I didn’t have her phone number with me.
Q. Okay. And did it occur to you to see if the officers could call her or clear that up while you were there?
A. No. They told us we had to immediately get off the property on it. They didn’t want to, when I told them that the chief had called, you know, well, they should have said, well, hold on, you know what I mean? It’s their job, not mine.
Q. I’m not suggesting that it’s your job. I’m just saying after you had driven all the way out there, that didn’t seem like something that was going to happen and you’re saying because you didn’t think Animal Control was willing to do that.
A. Right.
Q. Okay. And had you conversed directly with Officer Luce before coming out there or was that your wife who had conversed with her?
A. Both of us.
Q. You both had.
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And was that on a speaker phone that you had done that?
A. Yes. It was on conference calls on it.
Q. So did you each have your own phone and it was conferenced so all of you could hear?
A. No. They, Chief Luce had a phone and we had a cell phone and our cell phone was on speaker phone.
Q. Okay. That’s what I was asking.
A. Oh.
Q. Okay. That’s what I was asking initially. I may have said it kind of confusing.
A. No, that’s all right.
Q. And did you also communicate with Officer Luce and was she aware that all three of you were on the phone?
A. Yes. We, every one of us had questions--well, not every one of us, both of us had questions to it.
Q. Can you describe the shelters that you observed there on the farm please?
A. They had a, I don’t know if I can really describe them. I mean, I remember seeing a lean-two on the, on the northeast, northeast side of the barn there. There was like a group of trees if I remember correctly, if I remember, behind the lean-to was a, or behind the barn was a lean-two and in the pasture with the three horses was either a lean-to or like a, like a wind wall to help stop the wind.
Q. And can you describe the conditions of those shelters?
A. Ma’am, no, honestly I couldn’t.
Q. Can you say whether you thought they were in good shape or you remember them being in disrepair?
A. I don’t really remember because I was more looking at the horses, not that kind of stuff on it.
Q. If I showed you photographs, would that help?
A. Yeah. I mean, I’d see the photograph, you know what I mean, but I really didn’t pay attention they way I was kind of when you asked me about the syringes. That kind of stuff I really didn’t pay that much attention to. We were there to mainly look at the horses, that’s what we were looking at. We looked around for stuff we needed.
Q. And didn’t you bring stuff with you?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you use the stuff that you brought with you?
A. Yea--both.
Q. Okay.
A. Both. The time was kind of limited when we were there, because it was getting dark.
Q. I’m actually, we’re doing the question and answer, so if I’m not asking you a question--
A. That’s fine.
Q. Okay. Are you familiar with a pecking order of horses?
A. Not their pecking order, but yeah, horses have a pecking order.
Q. And can you describe what that is?
A. Yeah, the one, there’s always, there’s always one, one or two, like, well, on our place, we have one or two that’s in, you know, they’re the ones who kind of run the show, you know what I mean? And then there’s some that they just stay in the backdrop. That’s why, yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know how many there were, but when they were all standing around the round bale there were some that were pushing others away, you know what I mean, from it.
Q. So it is fair to say that if there is a pecking order, that it’s possible that some horses might get more food than others?
A. Well, there was one--I don’t know, ma’am. There was one round bale dumped for seventy horses--
Q. Based on, not based on, you know, your observations here on the farm, I’m just asking in general your observations in dealing with horses. If there is a pecking order, do some horses get more food than others?
A. No, because if the person--
Q. They all get the same?
A. --the person who takes care of that farm, that’s why I’ve dumped as many as I’ve dumped, so everybody does have equal opportunity.
Q. And what if you didn’t?
A. Then--
Q. What if you put one round bale--
A. --you’d have the problem.
Q. What if you put one round bale of hay out there and you have a pecking order of your horses. Would some get more food than others?
A. We’d have the problem that they had when the police were there, yes. Dumped one round bale, you had sixty horses fighting over the one round bale they dumped.
Q. So you’re saying yes?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And you’re saying that that appeared to be a problem there at the farm, if I understand you?
A. Yeah. They had, when we got there Officer Chapin said they dumped one round bale. I said, they need, because the horses they were all going crazy and they were mean. I said it’s because you dumped one round bale. You got seventy horses fighting over one round bale.
Q. I’m asking about a pecking order. Did you observe a pecking order?
A. I’m answering your question. Yes.
Q. Okay.
THE COURT: So it was your understanding then, Mr. Chaltry, that the one round bale in the pasture was placed there by the Animal Control personnel?
THE WITNESS: Yes. Officer Chapin said they had placed that in there earlier that day and it was very insufficient for that many. We figure six horses--
THE COURT: Did she say it was very inefficient or you’re telling us that now?
THE WITNESS: I’m--
THE COURT: And you told her then?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I told her that. There should have been eight to ten of them dumped out there. That’s what I would do if it was mine, I would have dumped eight to ten of them.
BY MS. LAMP:
Q. The three horses that were separated into the separate paddock, I believe that was three, four and five. Was there anything that you could tell that was distinctly different about those horses compared to the other horses that may have led them to be in a separate area?
A. Yeah, the two were old, they appeared, of the ones we looked at they were definitely the oldest ones. And then the grulla was thin.
Q. Did you think the two older horses were also thin?
A. Not so much, no.
Q. No?
A. Yes, they were thin because that’s what they looked like.
Q. They were thin?
A. Yes, they looked like their age. That’s what they looked like.
Q. Is it possible to be a twenty year old mare and not be thin?
A. Ahh…
Q. I’m just asking.
A. They may be some out there but it would be far and few between.
Q. Okay. Based on your observation of the wound, I believe it was on number eight, would it have surprised you to find out that there was in fact wire in it?
A. It would have--
Q. Based on your observation.
A. That’s, that’s hard to say. I mean, it was a bad cut. No, it wouldn’t have surprised me if there was and just, it could have been anything in there.
Q. What else could have been in there?
A. You name it. I mean, it could have been a stick, I mean, it, there could have been nothing in there. It could, it could have been anything. It could have been a piece of wood stuck in, piece of plastic, I mean, anything could have done that, another horse could have, it could have kicked itself with its back legs. I mean…
Q. And based on your observation of the grulla mare, you drew the conclusion that it was just an issue of wormer and did not need veterinary care?
A. Yeah. I mean, I said that--
Q. Yes or no.
A. --you know, somebody with experience could have handled it. Other than that, I would have taken it to a vet.
Q. Okay. Have you had occasion to meet with Mr. Dungan prior to coming in to testify?
A. Mr. Dungan on it? Yes.
Q. Yes.
A. He gave me a call.
Q. And when did you talk to Mr. Dungan?
A. Maybe yesterday or the day before, something like that.
Q. Had you talked to him previously?
A. I had not spoken to him personally, no.
Q. Have you talked to Matt or James?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And when did you talk to them?
A. The night I left the farm.
Q. How did that come to happen?
A. Because I called them to tell them, look, you know, to me things didn’t, they said they were losing the horses the next day at like noon and they said that nobody, nobody was there to be seen about the horses or some, along that line. So I called them to see--
Q. Let me ask you to be specific and tell me who told you what.
A. Okay. I called--when we got there, Officer, throughout the time we were there in the afternoon Officer Chapin had said about them losing the horses the following day on it. And myself by looking at what was left at the farm, if they supposedly abandoned the farm, what was left at the farm didn’t add up to me, so I had called to see--
THE COURT: Both?
THE WITNESS: --to talk to them. Actually I called, there was a cell phone number on a web site and I believe I spoke to, to Jim, Mr. Henderson, about it. And, and asked him, you know, just flat out, is this, is this what’s going on there on it.
BY MS. LAMP:
Q. You asked Jim what exactly?
A. I kept asking him questions about, you know, the horses to get--when I first called I called, I called anonymous, called him private, to ask, you know, look, they got us there looking at these horses here, you know. I need, I needed some type of history on that horse, you know, hey, they’re saying this one’s got wire in its leg, does it have wire in its leg. This grulla mare, have you tried doing this to her, have, you know, did you try wormer, two tubes if Panacur, try giving her Sand Clear on it. These two older ones on that, is that how they always looked, is this a new thing on it. The one that was blind in the eye, you know, that’s when I’d asked, you know, is this a new thing, has it been blind for a while, you know, is it going to need special cream put on it that may keep it from going blind, special steroid cream. I found out at that time no, it had, it was an old thing or something.
Q. And old injury to the eye?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you find out how the injury came to be?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. What did Jim tell you about the grulla mare?
A. That it, they weren’t sure what was going on with it, that they had been trying for a while to figure out, you know, trying different things to see why she wasn’t packing the weight on, on it. At that time, that’s when I, you know, gave him my recommendation.
Q. About the wormer?
A. Yeah. After seventy-hour hours it was to my knowledge I thought they were going to be back on the property on it. Told him, you know, you might want to try doing this or try doing that to it.
Q. And what did Jim tell you about the horse with the wire in it?
A. That Matt had said that he thought there was a piece of wire in it.
Q. And did he tell you what if anything they had done about it?
A. That the--I’m pretty sure they had said something about having the vet come to, they were having a vet come out or the vet was supposed to have been out or something. Something along the terms of a vet coming to the property to take care of it.
Q. So as you understood it, they had called a vet to come but had not previously called a vet to come?
A. Say that again?
Q. If I understand you, you said that Jim had told you that he had called a vet to come out to look at the--
A. No, I said Matt had called.
Q. You said Matt had told Jim--
A. Yeah.
Q. Because you talked to Jim as I understand it.
A. Yes. I talked to Jim.
Q. Okay. And Jim told you that Matt told him that Matt had called a vet to come look at the horse some time in the future.
A. Or in the past, yeah. Ini—the vet was supposed to have already have been out to the place by the time I called them.
Q. That day?
A. To my knowledge it was supposed to be that day, or pardon me again, the day before.
Q. Did Jim indicate to you whether they had treated that animal before for the wound or if this was the first time?
A. The wound…
Q. The first time that they were calling the vet for treatment.
A. They had said that they were taking care of it until the vet--
Q. Who said?
A. Jim said that Matt was taking care of it until the vet had got there for it, or come out for it.
Q. That day or the day before?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Okay. And what did Jim tell you about the two older horses?
A. That they were, that they were older, that actually under, that I had guessed the one to be twenty and I think the one was twenty, maybe the other one was twenty-five, something like that, that they were actually older than I thought they were.
Q. And how old did you think they were again?
A. I thought one was fifteen and one was twenty. And one was like twenty and was like twenty-five or something.
Q. So Jim told you they were twenty and twenty-five?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. What else did Jim tell you?
A. On it. I asked about the one paint on it, you know, I told him that the one paint was really sore in the leg, did he know what was going on with that. And I do not remember the conversation on that one. As I remember is their vet, he had said that was the other, one of the other ones the vet was going to look at either that day or the day before on it.
Q. Did Jim tell you that he had somebody out to look at it before that time?
A. No, ma’am. The conversation wasn’t very long on it. I believe Mr. Henderson was on the way home from the airport or something like that, was flying in from out of town or something. The conversation was real broke up and I believe he was probably in the airport at the time.
Q. Sure. What if anything else did Jim tell you?
A. Not much. They basically, you know, they had no idea that, you know, they were going to lose their horses the next day.
Q. I don’t think I understand what you mean.
A. Like I said, told them that they had placed a seventy-two hour hold on the horses, whether they were to get them back, and they had, Officer Chapin had said that they had not been in contact with either owner at that time, and I asked him, I said, do you know you’re going to probably lose your horses tomorrow. They said, no, they had no idea.
Q. Oh, he didn’t, you’re saying that Jim had no idea that that’s what was going on.
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Okay. And had you ever talked to Matt or Jim in the past?
A. The, before then?
Q. Mm-Hmm.
A. No. We had never, never spoken at all.
Q. Had you ever come across them or their ranch in any way?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. So you’d never had any ---
A. No. We do western pleasure, they’re into like barrels and racing I believe.
Q. Two different kinds of circles?
A. Yeah, yeah.
Q. Had you interacted with them on the internet to the best of your knowledge?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. Okay. So this is to the best of your knowledge the first time you had contact with them was on the day that you went to the farm.
A. Oh, not to my, it was the first time.
Q. Okay. Had your wife had any previous contact with them?
A. No, ma’am. We have like no, what they do in horses and what we do in horses is, there’s like no media between the two, they’re into fast, we’re into slow.
Q. Okay.
A. So we would have like no, no business I mean dealing horses together. Plus we’re into ponies and they’re into horses, you know. We do it mainly with, for kids and things like that.
Q. Okay. So let me ask you. You go out to the farm with your brother-in-law and you’re turned away.
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Officer Wheaton is rude to you. Do you go all the way back to Romulus?
A. Yeah, we were, we came in a work truck because we were kind of, we do a lot of work in Ann Arbor and we have a farm in Lake Columbia. We left there, went to Lake Columbia to get some ladders that we had in the barn, actually pick boards we had it in the barn. And I mean we were kind of on the way, you know what I mean, and then we went back.
Q. Okay.
A. From there.
Q. So what were you getting the ladders for, to take back with you to Romulus?
A. Yes, yup.
Q. Okay, all right. So you went, picked up your stuff at Lake Columbia, salvaged the drive out there.
A. Well, yeah. Well, what it was, yeah, it was quite cold and rainy so we, we do brick work. Wasn’t a lot of brick work you can do, you can’t lay brick in the rain really.
Q. Right.
A. So earlier in that, that year when we had went to the lake we had taken some stuff, we got a big barn up there, stored some stuff up there. Since we were, it was kind of like a thing, you know, if we go out to see the horses we’ll go by the lake, you know.
Q. Okay.
A. That kind of thing or vice versa, we needed to get the stuff so, you know, if we go to the lake, we might as well stop and look at the horses, you know what I mean, kill two birds with one stone thing.
Q. Now, what time were you out there initially, to the best of your recollection?
A. Gosh, I want to say it was like ten, eleven o’clock or something maybe, something like that.
Q. So--
A. It was like--
Q. –-late morning hours.
A. Late morning, yeah.
Q. Okay. And when did you get back to Romulus?
A. Oh, it was probably, it would have been like within maybe two, three hours by that time, something like that.
Q. All right.
A. Well, probably within, it takes like an hour. We swung by Ann Arbor and we had to get a couple contracts signed and then went straight, straight there. So it was probably like a hour, I think it was like an hour drive there, so it would be like an hour, hour and a half, something like that.
Q. So-—
A. Hour and a half probably that we were back to the farm.
Q. Like twelve thirty, one?
A. Something like that.
Q. Okay. And then what time did you come back out?
A. It would have been like around four or five maybe, something like that, when we got there I think.
Q. And what did you do in the meantime between getting home and coming back?
A. We grabbed the stuff out of there. I had to unload some stuff in my truck. Bring my stuff, bring my stuff in in my work truck, you know, certain things we all leave in the vehicles while we’re gone.
Q. Right.
A. So nothing gets stolen.
Q. And what did you do in that time that prompted you to come back?
A. Would have done that. I would have probably got lunch then, ate and then waited for my daughter to get out of school, stepdaughter to get out of school and then come back on it.
Q. Okay. Was your wife home at the time that you got back?
A. Yes, ma’am, yes.
Q. Did you discuss what had happened at the farm?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And what happened when you discussed that?
A. Well, that’s when we had both called Chief Luce, we had both talked to her at that point. My wife called her first and then I called her right after.
Q. So your wife called her not on speaker phone and then you called her not on speaker phone?
A. Right. Because at that time I had gone out, I knew if we were going to go back out there-—I had waited for my wife to get off the phone with her to tell us if she wanted us back out there. I knew we were going to be there kind of late, so I ran out, took care of my chores with my animals, my horses real quick, grabbed my stuff out of the barn and come up to the house.
Q. Okay. And then you went out to the farm.
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And you got there—-
A. Like four o’clock.
Q. Four o’clock? And what time did you leave?
A. It was like just before dark or just as it was getting dark, something like that. I don’t remember.
Q. And when did you call James Henderson?
A. On it, I think we ended up at like eleven or twelve o’clock at night.
Q. And when did you get the phone number?
A. Like ten, ten thirty.
Q. So after you got home you got on the internet and found his number to call?
A. Yeah, they had, I don’t remember. It was either, it was either Chief Luce or Officer Chapin had told us that it was the Turn Three Ranch and we had got on their web site and the other thing, I seen how expensive the horses were and that was the other thing that led me to believe they wouldn’t have just walked from it.
Q. How much they were asking for the horses.
A. Yeah. How much the horses were valued at.
Q. Now, have you ever called on other cases, have you ever had a criminal case where you’ve come in and taken animals?
A. Yeah. Matter of fact, we have one girl, she still comes by the farm to see a couple of the animals on it. That’s the one whose mother committed suicide, so I mean we weren’t-—
Q. But that wasn’t a criminal matter, was it?
A. No. They were neglected but they weren’t—-
Q. Who was neglecting them?
A. The animals were neglecting them(sic) but I think they kind of, they really didn’t, the girl’s mom just killed herself so I think they just kind of, she handed them over.
Q. Was she prosecuted?
A. No. I don’t think so.
Q. Have you ever been involved in cases where you’ve removed animals and people have been prosecuted?
A. Ticketed and things like that, not prosecuted.
Q. Okay. Do you usually contact the people that are getting ticketed and converse with them about what you’ve observed or what you’re doing there on the farm?
A. No, because usually they’re losing them for a good-—
Q. It’s just, just a yes or no question.
A. No.
Q. You don’t normally, this is the first time you’ve ever done that?
A. Yes, ma’am.
MS. LAMP: Okay. Nothing further.
THE COURT: Mr. Dungan?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION (At 4:12 p.m.)
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Why is it the first time?
A. Never--before it was justifiable taking the animals every time.
Q. What was different about this case?
A. I didn’t, I didn’t feel that they should have been losing the horses because most of them looked so well.
MR. DUNGAN: Thank you. No other questions, Judge.
THE COURT: Mr. Chaltry, you said that you got on the web site and you obtained the name of James Henderson or Jim Henderson?
THE WITNESS: Yeah. I don’t believe that it had a name—-
THE COURT: Just a telephone number?
THE WITNESS: --on there. If it…
THE COURT: Okay. But you called again a cell number you said?
THE WITNESS: Yeah, they had a phone number. We called the web site and it had a phone number, we called the phone number on it.
THE COURT: And when you called the phone number, who answered?
THE WITNESS: First like three or four times, nobody, and then finally I believe it was Mr. Henderson that I spoke to. I don’t remember one hundred percent, but I believe it was him.
THE COURT: You, have you seen these gentlemen at all before today’s date?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I had. I had-—
THE COURT: When was that?
THE WITNESS: After I’d called them, we had met, met with the two of them on it.
THE COURT: When was that and where?
THE WITNESS: A few weeks. We got, we’re like kind of in and out. We have a situation going on at home.
THE COURT: I understand that, best wishes for that, but you, sometime after the phone call then?
THE WITNESS: Yeah, it was after. It was probably like a couple weeks after the phone call.
THE COURT: Okay. And on the fourth or fifth call someone answered the phone.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: And it was, was it a male voice or a female voice?
THE WITNESS: It was a male voice.
THE COURT: And did you ask to speak to someone?
THE WITNESS: When I…
THE COURT: When someone answered?
THE WITNESS: No. I just asked them if they were the guys in Grass Lake who had all the horses. I didn’t-—
THE COURT: Okay. Did that—-
THE WITNESS: --know who I was asking for or…
THE COURT: How did the male respond to you?
THE WITNESS: He was, didn’t know what to say at first and then he was kind of stuttering around and then I just went ahead and started to speak and told him who I wa-—I didn’t tell him who I was at the time, I didn’t give him my name or anything like that.
THE COURT: You told him you were someone at the farm though?
THE WITNESS: Yeah. I told him I was called out to the farm and this is what I had seen and…
THE COURT: Did this male then give you a name?
THE WITNESS: Um, well, I asked him, he didn’t give me a last name, all I got was a first name.
THE COURT: What was that?
THE WITNESS: Jim.
THE COURT: And did he explain to you his relationship to the farm?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: What did he tell you?
THE WITNESS: That him and his friend had owned the farm, or not owned the farm but they owned the horses.
THE COURT: Did he say who, his friend’s name? Did he give that friend’s name?
THE WITNESS: Yes. Matt.
THE COURT: Is that all he said was Matt?
THE WITNESS: Yeah, yeah. We didn’t have any last names until we finally met in person.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: And they didn’t even have my name or my phone number. They used to just wait until I called them.
THE COURT: Was, at the end of this phone call then that evening when you were at the farm, were arrangements then made for you to call again or they to call you?
THE WITNESS: I told them that, you know, I would possibly call them later on, on it. By that time it was, like I said, I believe Mr. Henderson said he was either at the airport or on the way home from the airport, so the phone kept going in and out on it. By that time it was like, I think I called him at eleven or twelve o’clock at night, it was getting late, I was working in the morning.
THE COURT: Okay. At the end of the conversation, however, was there--
THE WITNESS: I told him I’d probably call him back at a normal hour, yes, sir.
THE COURT: Okay. So there wasn’t a meeting arranged at that time.
THE WITNESS: No, sir.
THE COURT: So did you then call back and a meeting was arranged?
THE WITNESS: Yeah. I’d called back and spoke to them and they said that they had--
THE COURT: You say them. Are you-—
THE WITNESS: To Jim and Matt. I don’t—-
THE COURT: Were both on the phone?
THE WITNESS: At that time, well, I’d talk to one and they’d hand the phone over and I’d talk to the other.
THE COURT: So your understanding was they were both present then.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. They had said, they had told me, you know, they had no idea kind of, that they were in as much trouble as they were in until I notified, called them.
THE COURT: Okay. And that was similar to the response you got from Jim that night that you were at the farm and that you called him when you got home.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. Then arrangements to meet then, is that right?
THE WITNESS: Yeah. I told them, you know, I’d like to meet them.
THE COURT: Okay. And did you?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Where?
THE WITNESS: They drove out to our place on it.
THE COURT: That’s in Romulus somewhere?
THE WITNESS: Yes. New Boston.
THE COURT: And which one’s Mr. Henderson and which one’s Mr. Mercier?
THE WITNESS: Mr. Mercier is in the blue pin stripes and--
THE COURT: Sitting at the table?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Mr. Henderson’s in the green.
THE COURT: Okay. And where did you meet?
THE WITNESS: They came out to our farm-—
THE COURT: To your farm?
THE WITNESS: Yes. With my wife we, you know, they, when they had come out it had to have been like a while after on it because they came to the place there like a month after we’d been out to the farm and that’s when my wife started getting where she wasn’t going places, so..
THE COURT: I understand. And what did you guys talk about then?
THE WITNESS: Not much. Well, I mean a lot actually, yeah.
THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Chaltry.
THE WITNESS: Yes. It was, you know, a lot of it was they, you know, they were just, we walked around, I showed them, you know, my horses and, you know, the-—
THE COURT: Let’s talk about the farm that you went to, not your farm.
THE WITNESS: We told them, you know, basically what we had saw with the horses on it.
THE COURT: Was someone else there besides you?
THE WITNESS: On it. By that time, no. We walked out, when we started talking about it we walked out to the barn, to my barn, and I’d asked them--
THE COURT: Just you and the other two gentlemen?
THE WITNESS: Yes. Part of the conversation my wife was present on it, but--
THE
COURT: Did you talk to them about their
farm?
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
I told them, you know, basically on what we had seen on the farm, you
know, what was kind of going on with it, told them, you know, don’t bullshit
me, you know, on what’s happening, you know what I mean, be up front with me.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: On it. And you know, then they were there maybe half hour, forty-five minutes on it and then they had to go.
THE COURT: When you talked with Jim the night, the first night and then later at your farm, did he seem knowledgeable about that farm?
THE WITNESS: He was, he was kind of like floored. I don’t know if one, he was more—-
THE
COURT: Was he knowledgeable about the
operation, the procedures, treatment of the horses, such?
THE WITNESS: He was, you know, I couldn’t say on how
knowledgeable he was. He was, he was
kind of leaving all his stuff open ended when I called him. That’s why, I mean, he wasn’t like real—-
THE COURT: The first night on the phone.
THE WITNESS: Yeah. He wasn’t real adamant about answering my questions. One, I don’t think he knew who I, you know what I mean?
THE
COURT: And that made sense to you,
didn’t it, looking back on it?
THE WITNESS: It made sense to me. I’m the one who did most of the talking on
it.
THE COURT: But the night, or the date that they meet at your farm, was Mr. Henderson, did he appear knowledgeable?
THE WITNESS: Mr. Henderson has always been real kind of quiet and he doesn’t, he never really--
THE COURT: Did he talk to you that day at your farm?
THE WITNESS: Yeah, he talked to us, but he wasn’t-—
THE
COURT: Was he talking about the
condition of the farm in Grass Lake?
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
He kind of beat around the bush on answering the questions a little bit,
you know, it was like-—
THE COURT: Did you get the impression that he was bullshitting you like you told him not to?
THE WITNESS: No, no. I didn’t think in the least bit that I was being lied to.
THE COURT: Okay. What did he say?
THE WITNESS: On it. I asked him, he said, you know, I told him, you know, flat out, you guys were slobs, you know, and he said yes, and I told him-—
THE COURT: Who said yes?
THE WITNESS: Who said what?
THE WITNESS: Who said yes?
THE WITNESS: Jim.
THE COURT: Okay, all right.
THE WITNESS: On it. Probably even Matt on it. And I told him you guys definitely, definitely got a mess on your hands over there, you know. You need it cleaned up, you know.
THE COURT: How about the horses?
THE WITNESS: You know, same thing about the horses. I told them flat out, you know, my opinion is is you guys had a lot of horses on there and you had a few that had issues, but, you know, I told them I called you because I didn’t feel that, you know, that you were deserving to lose your stuff but you did have stuff to work on and they said, you know, they appreciated it and they appreciated me calling, and…
THE COURT: Did Mr. Mercier tell you things too?
THE WITNESS: Yeah. Mr. Mercier was, was grateful for me calling and, once again, we talked about the same thing, you know, about them needing to pick stuff up on it. You know, I told them about, we talked a little bit about hay, the hay on it. You know, we talked, you know, regular horse--see, part of it, part of it when they came down we didn’t, I didn’t want to stay on the situation too much just because the horses we talked about for a minute it probably was kind of an uncomfortable subject with Mr. Henderson and Mr. Mercier and, you know, I brought them there to the farm to meet them on it, to tell them the way I felt when I went out to the farm. But I didn’t want it to be a situa-—put them in a uncomfortable situation where I just kept doting on it.
THE COURT: Mr. Chaltry, the night that you did talk the first time with Mr. Henderson. In talking about the grulla mare he told you he was not sure what the problem was, that he or they had tried many things and they did not know why, using your word, the horse wasn’t packing weight.
THE WITNESS: Right.
THE COURT: And then also with respect to the wire, he told you that Matt had told him that there was a wire in the leg, that the vet was supposed to have been at the farm already, Matt telling him.
THE WITNESS: Correct.
THE COURT: And then Matt was taking care of it until the vet got there. That’s what Jim had told you.
THE WITNESS: Correct. Jim had advised me that he had been out of town.
THE COURT: I understand. And he did tell you that the older horses, one you thought was fifteen and the other twenty but Jim says, no, one’s twenty and one’s twenty-five.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Okay. And that in terms of the paint, is that the lame one with the bad leg?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: And Jim had told you the vet was going to look at that too?
THE WITNESS: Yes. That the, yeah, that Matt, I believe his exact words was he had Matt having a vet come out.
THE COURT: When you got—-did you ever meet with the two gentlemen again after that day, either together or individually?
THE WITNESS: I met with Mr. Mercier.
THE COURT: When was that?
THE WITNESS: On it.
THE COURT: Let’s say from today’s date back. I mean, you were out of town for quite some time.
THE WITNESS: Well, I’d met with him when I’d spoke with the lawyer on it, we met with both of them.
THE COURT: But you—-
THE WITNESS: And that was either yesterday or the day before.
THE COURT: You’re saying Mr. Dungan over here and Matt, you met them.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. In your conversation on the telephone with Jim and then—-did you ever meet again with him, by the way?
THE WITNESS: No. I think that I’ve only seen him one other time and then today.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: On it.
THE COURT: In your telephone conversation with Jim and then later when Jim and Matt were at your farm, was there any question in your mind that Jim Henderson had an interest in the Grass Lake farm?
THE WITNESS: That he had an interest?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: What did you think that was?
THE WITNESS: I believed that he owned the horses.
THE COURT: Okay. And did you have any impression from talking with Matt Mercier that he had a relationship to that farm?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I--
THE COURT: What was your impression?
THE WITNESS: I assumed that the two of them were married and that they both owned the horses, you know, but….
THE COURT: Okay. But they both had an interest in the farm.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Yes, okay. Mr. Dungan, any further questions?
FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION(At 4:24 p.m.)
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. When the judge asked you some questions about the various interests in the farm, I just want to make sure that we’re all talking about the same thing here. When the judge says interest in the farm, do you consider that the horses or the actual farm property or some combination of both?
A. I assumed that they both, I assumed that they were married and to me when you’re married you’re both equally…
Q. Okay. Did you ever ask them do you own the property, lease the property, get the property for free?
A. Yes. I had asked I forget which one, but they had said that they had leased the, leased the property on it.
Q. Okay. So you were aware that they were renting it and not owning it. Correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And then as to the horses you believed that Jim was the owner?
A. Yeah, well, after I’d spoke with Matt, it was Matt or Jim, it was one of the two the first day they were there, I was more under the impression that Jim owned most of the horses and Matt only owned like a horse or two, like I believe it was one or two horses.
Q. All right. And were you also given an understanding as to who did the day to day work out on that farm?
A. Yes. When we asked them what they, you know, if that’s what they did, Mr. Henderson advised me, you know, what he had done for a living on it, working for the county, and Mr. Mercier said, you know, he had a job he does once in a while and then he’s, most of the time that’s what he does is take care of the horses.
Q. At the Grass Lake farm.
A. Yes.
MR. DUNGAN: Okay, thank you. I don’t have any other questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Miss Lamp?
THE WITNESS: Can I add to that? One reason I know I had asked them that is I asked whose truck was that stuck in the pasture and that’s when he had told me that he had done most of it, I’d seen his truck.
THE COURT: Who told you that?
THE WITNESS: Mr. Mercier. Yeah.
THE COURT: Okay. Miss Lamp?
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION(At 4:26 p.m.)
BY MS. LAMP:
Q. What was the job that Mr. Mercier told you he did most, or some of the time?
A. Like some type of counseling thing.
Q. Did he tell you what type of counseling?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. When you met with Mr. Mercier and Mr. Henderson and as I understand it you told them that they were pigs and messy or whatever, something to that effect, what was it specifically about your observations that you made at the farm that led you to make those statements?
A. Shoes. There were shoes everywhere on the place. I mean some were junk, some were nice, they were shoes and clothes like everywhere. I mean, one of them, I guess it turned out to be Mr. Mercier, loved his shoes.
THE COURT: Are you talking about horse shoes or people shoes?
THE WITNESS: People shoes. Or didn’t love them or something that he left them laying around. He had shoes.
BY MS. LAMP:
Q. What else?
A. There was just like, I don’t know, they needed a dumpster, needed a dumpster just to pick stuff up and throw it in, you know.
Q. What kind of stuff?
A. It was like empty feed sacks, there was wood, I believe one of it was like a barn that had fell down right by the front of the driveway. There was just ladder, chains, extension cords, broken hoses, water tubs with holes in it. It was just stuff.
Q. What about the debris out in the pasture?
A. Debris out in the pasture.
Q. Did you observe anything like that?
A. As I recall, we moved some things. We moved like a couple boards or something like that. I didn’t, I don’t think we really, most of it was like in the, like their little tack room area was just a wreck in the barn. There was a couple gates that were down, there were water buckets everywhere over in one area, water tubs everywhere in one area. Being in the pasture, I don’t remember seeing a whole lot of stuff in the pasture. It was like from the front of the barn to the road was like, I don’t know, like Payless Shoes.
Q. Is it true that when you arrived and went into the barn that you and your wife exclaimed about how gross and disgusting it was and how you could not believe that the owners of the horses had let it get that way?
A. No, half of those—-it wasn’t that it was gross and disgusting, it was, you know, they needed to pick up some stuff on it. They were very unorganized, my wife and I just kept saying that they were slobs. I mean, not saying gross and disgusting, our exact words is they were slobs on it.
Q. Were you horrified at the conditions that the horses were left in?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. And you didn’t express the same to Officer Chapin when you were there in the barn?
A. I never once said that I was horrified of the conditions they were in on it.
Q. Well, and I’m not even—-
A. I’ve seen worse.
Q. –-using the word horrified in quotes, I’m just saying that you guys were disgusted-—
A. I was upset. I was upset that number one, the barn was being flooded on it, one thing that upset me was that they had a horse with a blanket on it, they wouldn’t, it had lice, they wouldn’t let me put lice stuff on it-—
Q. Who?
A. I believe it was Officer Chapin called Officer Wheaton. I wanted to—-
THE COURT: What she’s interested in knowing is what you told the officers about what you thought the--
THE WITNESS: Yeah, I mean they were—-
THE COURT: --condition of the farm was in terms of slobs--
THE WITNESS: They definitely, they needed to spend a few days picking stuff up and throwing stuff away.
THE COURT: But gross and disgusting was not a term that you used.
THE WITNESS: Gross and disgusting wasn’t the issue as much as it was they needed to pick up and organize.
THE COURT: Did you hear your spouse use that term?
THE WITNESS: I can’t vouch for my spouse myself.
THE COURT: So you weren’t always together during the time?
THE WITNESS: Correct.
THE COURT: All right, okay. I think we’ve covered that, Miss Lamp.
BY MS. LAMP:
Q. Do you recall making a statement when you had observed the wound on I believe it was horse number eight with the wire in it, or, you know, that may have had the wire in it as you understood it may or may not have at the time, do you remember saying if they would have just taken care of it, it would have been fine? Do you recall saying that in front of Officer Chapin?
A. No, ma’am, I do not.
Q. So if her recollection was different than that as far as you can recall, it would not be the truth?
A. My word is is that if they, when we had that conversation it wasn’t if they would have taken care of it, if they would take care of it, it would be fine.
Q. Okay.
A. To change the bandage every day. Not talking about them, talking about whoever, whoever was going to be there. I work, I work during the day, you know, I’m not going, it just happened to be a fluke that I was able to go there that day.
Q. Right.
A. You know what I mean? But whoever was to be there had to take care of it, they’re going to have to keep that wound clean, they’re going to have to change that bandage once, if not twice a day on it.
Q. So you did not make that statement that if they, if they being the owners had taken care of that, it would have been just fine?
A. No, no.
Q. Do you recall your wife pulling a knife out of the muck, as you call it, point, the blade point up, and making a comment about that?
A. That would have been the knife that I stepped on because there was only one knife that was found and the blade is the one I stepped on.
Q. And do you recall her picking it up with the point up?
A. I don’t remember if she picked it up or I picked it up. I can’t recall on it. I know it got picked up.
MS. LAMP: Okay. No further questions.
THE COURT: I think you might be done, Mr. Chaltry.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Thanks for coming and best wishes with your wife.
THE WITNESS: I appreciate it.
MR. DUNGAN: Can I ask just a couple?
THE COURT: Yes.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION(At 4:32 p.m.)
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. The tack room that you’re talking about that was a mess.
A. Yes.
Q. Is that an area the horses had access to?
A. No. It had a, like a round, like a round four inch post that went around it so that nothing would walk into it.
Q. And all the stuff that you were talking about, the broken down building and the Payless Shoe Store and that stuff that was from, essentially from the barn to the road, is that an area where the horses were kept?
A. No. They’re behind the fence.
Q. All right. As far as areas where the horses were kept, did you see any kind of debris or things that would be dangerous or potentially cause a problem to the horses?
A. I mean, there might have been pieces of wood laying around, I think I remember picking up a gate because we moved the gate on it, just, I don’t really remember, I remember just kind of being amazed that, you know, the one barn, the like storage barn, you know, the stuff in there. I don’t remember the whole pasture being that bad. I mean, I mean, granted there was stuff that needed picked up, but I don’t remember, you know, I remember saying they need to pick some of this stuff up and then get it out of there, but the most part was like leading up to and there was stuff everywhere.
Q. And as far as the pick up that needed to be done, that looked like about a two day job?
A. Probably two or three days. I mean, I’d have said take one week and pick stuff up.
Q. Is that something farmers commonly do in the springtime when it warms up?
A. Yeah, we do it twice a year on our place. We pick everything up. Part of our pasture is wooded so we go through twice a year, pick up sticks, rake it—-
Q. Which times of the year?
A. We do it once in the spring and then once right before it snows.
MR. DUNGAN: Okay, all right, thank you. I don’t have any other questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Chaltry, now you’re done.
MS. LAMP: No, no, I’ve got one quick question.
THE COURT: No, we’re done, we’re done. Thank you very much, Mr. Chaltry.
THE WITNESS: I appreciate it.
THE COURT: And best wishes. Thanks for your patience with us.
(At 4:34 p.m. witness excused)